[WSMDiscuss] Launch of RED website, call for your contributions!
jai.sen at cacim.net
Sun Jul 30 18:11:51 CEST 2017
Sunday, July 30, 2017
Just briefly : Thanks for this warm and welcoming response. I’m relieved to know that you – and I hope also Pallav – have seen my ‘critical embrace’ in this way; unfortunately, it's sometimes seen as being a little too critical and a little too tight !
Thanks in particular for confirming that you will address the points I make in what you launch shortly. This is great to know.
Thanks also for the brief summary of the Vikalp Sangam process, which I suspect will be of interest to many on this list. Though you may well have posted this before – well, on this list’s predecessor list, WSFDiscuss - I think it may be very useful if you were, at this stage, to also now post a link to the Vikalp Sangam process, if it's available, and also perhaps a copy of the note ‘In Search of Alternatives’.
As for my point regarding also addressing and embracing the incivil (please note the term I use though, which I see as being very different from the term ‘uncivil’), yes broadly speaking those are the sections of society that I am referring to. <applewebdata://34656CF8-D94E-4AAF-BA5A-48B73F1F366A#_ftn1> And again, I’m happy to see your agreeing that it would be a great pity if your initiative were to get stuck only in the world of ngos etc. But, having said this, let me also just raise a warning – and speaking from experience - that because of a whole host of structural factors that always come into play, in my experience at least the tendency to end up focusing on what so-called ‘civil society’ organisations and peoples think and experience and do is very strong; that is too often the default setting. So, if you don’t mind my saying so, I suspect that you will have to constantly struggle against this….
Indeed collaboration between the WSM list and this site (and its related RED list) would be most welcome and useful. How precisely to do this, we should discuss ... at the very least I guess to pick up things from each other and highlight them.
Again, I’m very glad to have this response. So let’s talk – off list !
Pl. also contribute one or more pieces yourself ... perhaps a short one to start with, based on the books you have just brought out?
Thanks for the invitation; let me think about this.
Yes, pl feel free to circulate to other lists, and they can respond directly to me and Pallav.
Have done so !
With very warm greetings in solidarity, and looking forward to the launch –
 <applewebdata://34656CF8-D94E-4AAF-BA5A-48B73F1F366A#_ftnref1> I make and discuss this differentiation, among other things, in my contribution to the books I've edited that are coming out soon, in an essay titled ‘Break Free ! Engaging Critically with the Concept and Reality of Civil Society’. For those who can’t wait that long :-), there is an earlier version of my arguments in an essay titled ‘The power of civility’, available @ https://independent.academia.edu/JaiSen <https://independent.academia.edu/JaiSen>. And for those really interested, I also gave a talk / seminar based on my current essay that is available at http://www.esgindia.org/events/events/break-free.html <http://www.esgindia.org/events/events/break-free.html>.
> On Jul 29, 2017, at 6:51 PM, Ashish Kothari <chikikothari at gmail.com> wrote:
> Dear Jai,
> Many many thanks for a considered and helpful response. The constructive criticism is most welcome, and we hope we can do justice to these points in the message we will put across when we launch the site, and in further communications. All three additional points, or points of elaboration, are welcome.
> On the 2nd of your points, this is what we are attempting through the Vikalp Sangam process in India ... connecting the practical and everyday lived experience with conceptual, ideological, ethical perspectives that emerge from them, or that connect to key alternative ideologies that exist out there. This is through tools like the note 'In Search of Alternatives'. It is a rather imperfect attempt, but nevertheless an explicit one! And so we do hope we can do it also through the RED site and processes that go into it.
> I am not fully clear of your reference to the 'uncivil', but if you mean workers, indigenous peoples, fishers, those of different sexualities, and so on, yes the RED site needs to be not only open but especially welcoming of these. It would be a failure if it got stuck to 'NGOs' or those in the formal 'civil' spaces. But perhaps I am not fully understanding your reference to uncivil?
> Indeed collaboration between the WSM list and this site (and its related RED list) would be most welcome and useful. How precisely to do this, we should discuss ... at the very least I guess to pick up things from each other and highlight them.
> Pl. also contribute one or more pieces yourself ... perhaps a short one to start with, based on the books you have just brought out?
> THe list of forums and websites (of which I was aware of only a few) is most useful, we will happily look at them to see what connections can be made.
> Yes, pl feel free to circulate to other lists, and they can respond directly to me and Pallav.
> Once again, many thanks!
> PS, on your rather kind remarks re. the 'balance' we manage to keep connections amongst various circles and see them as overlapping and intersecting ... I am not so sure we manage it so well! But on this, it would be good to collectively reflect at some point. Next month we are doing a self-assessment from a 5-sphere perspective (ecological, political, economic, social, cultural) to see what our points of strength and more importantly, weaknesses, are. We will use a preliminary tool 'ALternatives Transformation Format' that we've worked out partly based on the Vikalp Sangam process ... I'd be happy to send this to anyone interested!
> Ashish Kothari
> Apt 5 Shree Datta Krupa
> 908 Deccan Gymkhana
> Pune 411004, India
> Tel: 91-20-25654239; 91-20-25675450
> http://kalpavriksh.org <http://kalpavriksh.org/>
> www.vikalpsangam.org <http://www.vikalpsangam.org/>
> www.iccaconsortium.org <http://www.iccaconsortium.org/>
> http://ashishkothari51.blogspot.in/ <http://ashishkothari51.blogspot.in/>
> Twitter: @chikikothari
> On 28/07/17 7:03 PM, JS CACIM wrote:
>> Friday, July 28, 2017
>> Greetings Ashish !
>> This is mostly just to warmly congratulate you and Pallav – and Kalpavriksh ? – on this initiative, and to appreciate your taking up this mantle. It is also wonderful to see how you are progressing – and managing to progress, which is no mean feat -, step by step; from Kalpavriksh, to the Vikalp Sangam, and to the Radical Ecological Democracy blog space, and now from there to a RED interactive webspace…. (and where, as I’m sure you know, ‘red’ in Spanish also means… network !)
>> (Even though you have asked us, if we have responses, to not reply all – ie onto the list - but only to you and Pallav, as list admin I am selfishly also posting this on WSMDiscuss in the hope that this might open up some discussion on the list of your initiative !)
>> In fact, I guess that even this is in fact an incorrect picturisation, because as I understand it, you are not ‘stepping’ from one to the other, but always also remaining in each circle, and so where they are in a way, either concentric circles, ever widening, or overlapping circles… ecologically interconnected. Personally, I am astonished how you are being able to successfully manage this marvellous and fine balance ( I have always found this not just difficult but just about impossible), and so I seriously do hope that you and your colleagues will at some point reflect (critically !) and write about how you are managing to do this. (And share that with us, on this list !)
>> Without wanting to make this message too long, I also want to say that as I see it, what you are attempting and aiming at, as summarised in these questions, is so similar to what we at what is now World Social Movement Discuss also want to do; the questions you list out are also so appropriate to what this list is about – and so where I anyway, would like to hope that there might be ways in which we could even collaborate across our respective initiatives (such as, as a minimum, each of us tapping each other’s archives ?). Let’s talk about this, and about ways in which we could make this work.
>> Having said this, there are also a couple of comments I would like to make, which I hope you will read in the spirit of critical embrace that I offer them :
>> First, I think it would be very useful if you were to consider adding three aspects that I think are, I think, implied in what you say here – but, I feel, always need to be spelled out (in your own words, of course) :
>> One, to not just report and inform etc but also to always keep a critically awareness of the larger context within which what we are reporting on is taking place, and to critically reflect on that;
>> Two, I suggest, and related to the first point, to look not only at ‘movements from below’ – which is what comes across in your questions - but also at what some have called ‘movements from above’, and at the interrelationship, and to therefore always attempt developing a structural (and dialectical) perspective on things that are happening, and unfolding….; and –
>> Three, to add / spell out ‘communalism’, ‘casteism’, and ‘racism’ to the forms of power that you want to overcome. (I know that these could be considered to be included within your saying “other forms of concentration of power”, but… I think that in the world we live in, it’s useful not to be silent on these but to also spell them out.) And also what some people call the ‘intersectionality’.
>> And second, if you don't mind my saying this, to somewhere and somehow make clear that you want / RED wants to not only hear from the ‘civil’ world, and from so-called ‘civil society’, and to know about ‘civil’ initiatives and so on, but also from those who are challenging the civil world, from outside and also sort of ‘from within’…; from those I term the ‘incivil’ (and / but where I see that others are also beginning to use this term and perspective). At the moment, I feel that your call – and even if using terms such as ‘transformative’ - is still too ‘civil’, and too much addressed to the ‘civil’ world.
>> Again, I hope you will not mind my making these comments, and may even find them useful !
>> Let me end by being more obviously constructive, and in response to your request, suggest a few other forums that I think RED shares space with and might want relate to, some civil and some incivil :
>> The initiative in Abya Yala [‘South America’] named Crisis de Civilizacion Y Paradigmas Alternativos [‘Crisis of Civilisation and Alternative Paradigms’]; contact the list admin Roberto Espinoza at ayamtai08 at gmail.com <mailto:ayamtai08 at gmail.com>
>> Ecosocialist Horizons, at www.ecosocialisthorizons.com <http://www.ecosocialisthorizons.com/>
>> Indymedia, at https://indymedia.org/or/index.shtml <https://indymedia.org/or/index.shtml>
>> Interface, at http://www.interfacejournal.net/ <http://www.interfacejournal.net/>
>> Open Movements : The ISA47 platform on www.opendemocracy.net <http://www.opendemocracy.net/>
>> New Socialist, at http://www.newsocialist.org/ <http://www.newsocialist.org/>
>> Peoples Studies, at www.peoples-studies.com <http://www.peoples-studies.com/>
>> Rabble, at www.rabble.ca <http://www.rabble.ca/>
>> Resistance Studies Initiative, at www.resistancestudies.org <http://www.resistancestudies.org/>
>> Waging Nonviolence, at https://wagingnonviolence.org/ <https://wagingnonviolence.org/>
>> Yes magazine, at www.yesmagazine.org <http://www.yesmagazine.org/>
>> You may also find some of the following of interest – the list of Web Pages and Blog spots from the first of my two current / forthcoming books, just copied and pasted in :
>> http://barrikadazapatista.wordpress.com/ <http://barrikadazapatista.wordpress.com/>
>> http://chiapas.indymedia.org/ <http://chiapas.indymedia.org/>
>> http://contralarepresion.wordpress.com/2010/06/ <http://contralarepresion.wordpress.com/2010/06/>
>> http://detodos-paratodos.blogspot.com/2009/03/concluye-el-encuentro-de-mujeres-mama.html <http://detodos-paratodos.blogspot.com/2009/03/concluye-el-encuentro-de-mujeres-mama.html>
>> http://dignarabia.ezln.org.mx/ <http://dignarabia.ezln.org.mx/>
>> http://enlacezapatista.ezln.org.mx/ <http://enlacezapatista.ezln.org.mx/>
>> http://lahorasexta.podomatic.com/ <http://lahorasexta.podomatic.com/>
>> http://mujeresylasextaorg.wordpress.com/ <http://mujeresylasextaorg.wordpress.com/>
>> http://revistarebeldia.org/ <http://revistarebeldia.org/>
>> http://rinconzapatistazac.blogspot.com/ <http://rinconzapatistazac.blogspot.com/>
>> http://union-rebelde.blogspot.com/ <http://union-rebelde.blogspot.com/>
>> http://zapateando.wordpress.com/ <http://zapateando.wordpress.com/>
>> http://zeztainternazional.ezln.org.mx/ <http://zeztainternazional.ezln.org.mx/>
>> http://www.capise.org.mx/ <http://www.capise.org.mx/>
>> http://www.cedoz.org/site/ <http://www.cedoz.org/site/>
>> http://www.chiapasmediaproject.org/ <http://www.chiapasmediaproject.org/>
>> http://www.coloquiointernacionalandresaubry.org/ <http://www.coloquiointernacionalandresaubry.org/>
>> http://www.contralaimpunidad.org/index.php <http://www.contralaimpunidad.org/index.php>
>> http://www.encuentroindigena.org/ <http://www.encuentroindigena.org/>
>> http://www.europazapatista.org/ <http://www.europazapatista.org/>
>> http://www.nodo50.org/pchiapas/chiapas/documentos/caracol/caracol.htm <http://www.nodo50.org/pchiapas/chiapas/documentos/caracol/caracol.htm>
>> http://www.radioinsurgente.org/ <http://www.radioinsurgente.org/>
>> http://www.radiozapatista.org/IIEncuentro.htm <http://www.radiozapatista.org/IIEncuentro.htm>
>> http://www.radiozapatista.org/index.html <http://www.radiozapatista.org/index.html>
>> http://www.serazln-altos.org/index.html <http://www.serazln-altos.org/index.html>
>> In critical solidarity – as always ! A luta continua !
>> PS : May I also forward your post onto other lists ?
>>> On Jul 27, 2017, at 7:30 PM, Ashish Kothari via WSM-Discuss <wsm-discuss at lists.openspaceforum.net <mailto:wsm-discuss at lists.openspaceforum.net>> wrote:
>>> Dear Friends,
>>> Our new initiative, the launch of the Radical Ecological Democracy website is just a couple of weeks away. Through this website we hope to engage people around the world on the practice and notion of transformative alternatives: initiatives that can challenge and ultimately replace the currently dominant structures of patriarchy, capitalism, statism, and other forms of concentration of power that have institutionalized dire inequality all around the world and thrown it into a severe ecological emergency. We are thrilled that many of you have already become a part of this journey by sharing your expertise through articles and discussions for the site, and hopefully many more of you will consider contributing stories, perspectives, poetry, art pieces, or other forms of expression to enliven and diversify. We also want this website to act as an international bulletin board for the exchange of news, announcements, appeals and general shout-outs on issues that you think are important for the people frequenting this site to be aware of, with a focus on transformative alternatives. So, if you have a contribution to make on any of the following points then please write to us:
>>> -- Is there a grassroots initiative towards alternatives in your part of the world which is gaining momentum and which the rest of the world needs to know of?
>>> -- Is there a people's movement attempting alternatives, which is being suppressed by the state or corporate interests, or facing other threats and needs support … and any related protests/movement actions that need publicity?
>>> -- Are there any events (conferences, workshops, festivals, meets) relevant to transformative alternatives coming up, and need to be publicized?
>>> -- Are there any stories of people's triumphs which the world should know about and draw positive energy from?
>>> -- Are there any mistakes in the practice and conceptualisation of alternatives, which need sharing so that they're not repeated elsewhere?
>>> -- Are there other websites and forums that are similar to this one, and need to be linked to (as also not duplicated!)?
>>> Let us know if you want a committed audience to be aware of what's happening in your part of the world. Obviously, we'll make sure that no unwanted, trivial or irresponsible item features on the website (and if by oversight it does, pl. tell us to take if off!). Please send your contribution to Pallav. Also, spread the word among your colleagues and comrades and encourage them to contribute. We hope that through this effort we can join hands (and feet, minds, and hearts!) to do our bit in laying the foundation of a new narrative.
>>> UNLESS RELEVANT TO EVERYONE, PL. RESPOND ONLY TO ME AND PALLAV, THANKS!
>>> In solidarity,
>>> Ashish Kothari / Pallav Das (dpallav at gmail.com <mailto:dpallav at gmail.com>)
>>> P.S. : some of you would be familiar with the precursor to this website, the blog http://radicalecologicaldemocracy.wordpress.com <http://radicalecologicaldemocracy.wordpress.com/>; this site is an attempt to fully upgrade that initiative into a more active, interactive forum. As this initiative is currently completely voluntary, we also welcome any financial contributions that you can make or can point us to, from sources that will not compromise our basic orientation towards justice of all kinds.
>>> PS 2: For those interested, we coordinate a website for similar articles/stories, news/events on alternatives in India: www.vikalpsangam.org <http://www.vikalpsangam.org/> or www.alternativesindia.org <http://www.alternativesindia.org/>.
>>> Ashish Kothari
>>> Apt 5 Shree Datta Krupa
>>> 908 Deccan Gymkhana
>>> Pune 411004, India
>>> Tel: 91-20-25654239; 91-20-25675450
>>> http://kalpavriksh.org <http://kalpavriksh.org/>
>>> www.vikalpsangam.org <http://www.vikalpsangam.org/>
>>> www.iccaconsortium.org <http://www.iccaconsortium.org/>
>>> http://ashishkothari51.blogspot.in/ <http://ashishkothari51.blogspot.in/>
>>> Twitter: @chikikothari
>>> ** Inspired by the World Social Forum, WSMDiscuss – the successor to a list named ‘WSFDiscuss’ started in 2005 - is an open, unmoderated, and self-organising forum for the exchange of information and views on the experience, practice, and theory of social and political movement at any level (local, national, regional, and global), including the World Social Forum. Join in ! **
>>> World Social Movement Discuss mailing list
>>> POST to LIST : Send email to wsm-discuss at lists.openspaceforum.net <mailto:wsm-discuss at lists.openspaceforum.net>
>>> SUBSCRIBE : Send empty email to wsm-discuss-subscribe at lists.openspaceforum.net <mailto:wsm-discuss-subscribe at lists.openspaceforum.net>
>>> UNSUBSCRIBE : Send empty email to wsm-discuss-unsubscribe at lists.openspaceforum.net <mailto:wsm-discuss-unsubscribe at lists.openspaceforum.net>
>>> LIST ARCHIVES : https://lists.openspaceforum.net/pipermail/wsm-discuss/ <https://lists.openspaceforum.net/pipermail/wsm-discuss/>
>>> LIST INFORMATION : https://lists.openspaceforum.net/mailman/listinfo/wsm-discuss <https://lists.openspaceforum.net/mailman/listinfo/wsm-discuss>
>>> POSTING GUIDELINES : http://openspaceforum.net/twiki/tiki-index.php?page=Mailing+List+Posting+Guidelines <http://openspaceforum.net/twiki/tiki-index.php?page=Mailing+List+Posting+Guidelines>
>>> Old / previous WSFDiscuss List Archives : http://openspaceforum.net/pipermail/worldsocialforum-discuss_openspaceforum.net/ <http://openspaceforum.net/pipermail/worldsocialforum-discuss_openspaceforum.net/>
>> Jai Sen
>> jai.sen at cacim.net <mailto:jai.sen at cacim.net>
>> www.cacim.net <http://www.cacim.net/> / http://www.openword.net.in <http://www.openword.net.in/>
>> Now based in New Delhi, India (+91-98189 11325) and in Ottawa, Canada, on unceded Anishinaabe territory (+1-613-282 2900)
>> Recent publications :
>> Jai Sen, ed, 2016 – The Movements of Movements, Part 1 : What Makes Us Move ? (forthcoming in 2017 from New Delhi : OpenWord and Oakland, CA : PM Press), ADVANCE PREFINAL ONLINE MOVEMENT EDITION @ www.cacim.net <http://www.cacim.net/>
>> Jai Sen, ed, 2013 – The Movements of Movements : Struggles for Other Worlds, Part I. Prefinal version of Volume 4 Part I in the Challenging Empires series. New Delhi : OpenWord. Prefinal version 1.0 available @ http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/the_movements_of_movements/ <http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/the_movements_of_movements/>
>> FORTHCOMING PUBLICATIONS :
>> Jai Sen, ed, 2017a – The Movements of Movements, Part 1 : What Makes Us Move ?. Volume 4 in the Challenging Empires series (New Delhi : OpenWord and Oakland, CA : PM Press). Available for pre-order at PM Press <http://www.pmpress.org/>
>> Jai Sen, ed, 2017b – The Movements of Movements, Part 2 : Rethinking Our Dance. Volume 5 in the Challenging Empires series (New Delhi : OpenWord and Oakland, CA : PM Press)
>> CHECK OUT CACIM @ www.cacim.net <http://www.cacim.net/>, OpenWord @ http://www.openword.net.in <http://www.openword.net.in/>, and OpenSpaceForum @ www.openspaceforum.net <http://www.openspaceforum.net/>
>> AND SUBSCRIBE TO World Social Movement Discuss, an open, unmoderated, and self-organising forum for the exchange of information and views on the experience, practice, and theory of social and political movement at any level (local, national, regional, and global), including the World Social Forum. To subscribe, simply send an empty email to wsm-discuss-subscribe at lists.openspaceforum.net <mailto:wsm-discuss-subscribe at lists.openspaceforum.net>
jai.sen at cacim.net <mailto:jai.sen at cacim.net>
www.cacim.net <http://www.cacim.net/> / http://www.openword.net.in
Now based in New Delhi, India (+91-98189 11325) and in Ottawa, Canada, on unceded Anishinaabe territory (+1-613-282 2900)
Recent publications :
Jai Sen, ed, 2016 – The Movements of Movements, Part 1 : What Makes Us Move ? (forthcoming in 2017 from New Delhi : OpenWord and Oakland, CA : PM Press), ADVANCE PREFINAL ONLINE MOVEMENT EDITION @ www.cacim.net <http://www.cacim.net/>
Jai Sen, ed, 2013 – The Movements of Movements : Struggles for Other Worlds, Part I. Prefinal version of Volume 4 Part I in the Challenging Empires series. New Delhi : OpenWord. Prefinal version 1.0 available @ http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/the_movements_of_movements/ <http://www.into-ebooks.com/book/the_movements_of_movements/>
FORTHCOMING PUBLICATIONS :
Jai Sen, ed, 2017a – The Movements of Movements, Part 1 : What Makes Us Move ?. Volume 4 in the Challenging Empires series (New Delhi : OpenWord and Oakland, CA : PM Press). Available for pre-order at PM Press <http://www.pmpress.org/>
Jai Sen, ed, 2017b – The Movements of Movements, Part 2 : Rethinking Our Dance. Volume 5 in the Challenging Empires series (New Delhi : OpenWord and Oakland, CA : PM Press)
CHECK OUT CACIM @ www.cacim.net <http://www.cacim.net/>, OpenWord @ http://www.openword.net.in <http://www.openword.net.in/>, and OpenSpaceForum @ www.openspaceforum.net <http://www.openspaceforum.net/>
AND SUBSCRIBE TO World Social Movement Discuss, an open, unmoderated, and self-organising forum for the exchange of information and views on the experience, practice, and theory of social and political movement at any level (local, national, regional, and global), including the World Social Forum. To subscribe, simply send an empty email to wsm-discuss-subscribe at lists.openspaceforum.net <mailto:wsm-discuss-subscribe at lists.openspaceforum.net>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
More information about the WSM-Discuss