[WSMDiscuss] New article on REDWeb: Marx and Political Ecology
Ashish Kothari
chikikothari at gmail.com
Sat Dec 29 15:44:22 CET 2018
Since Omar's response to Dunu (and perhaps Dunu's comment also?) on his
article on Marx and Political Ecology may not have reached all the
lists, I am forwarding it here.
ashish
On 29/12/18 7:56 PM, Omar h Dahbour wrote:
> Dear Ashish and others,
>
> Well, I would make 2 quick points about the comment on my piece.
> Overall, it is not a question, I think, of whether Marx predicted this
> or that which didn't come to pass. It is more a question of his
> underlying philosophical commitments (both about methods, & about
> goals), & whether they are ones which, over a century later, we should
> still endorse.
>
> So, first, I am all for "dialectical analysis," but this did not start
> w/Marx, nor did it end w/him. The history of critical theory in the
> 20th century resulted in some crucial developments that cannot be
> ignored (I would cite, above all, the contributions of Lukacs, & esp,
> in an environmental context, Adorno), & that take dialectics far
> beyond Marx's contributions. For instance, the importance of
> consciousness, or the ways in which negation works, are matters that
> Max barely touched on, & that receive central attention by the figures
> just mentioned (& others) after him. This is esp important once we
> turn to the human-nature relation, & how to understand that
> dialectically--something that Marx thought was more or less subsumed
> w/in an account of labor (see ch 7 of Capital). But this is only a
> piece of the puzzle....
>
> Second, in terms of goals, it is important to remember that Marx saw
> industrial society, not as a problem, but as a solution to problems
> (of meeting human needs, which were infinitely expandable, on his
> view). How could that possibly be the case for us today? In my view,
> our most important task is to de-industrialize, whatever system of
> ownership we have (which, of course, is not unconnected, though it is
> still a somewhat separate matter). The point about the USSR is that it
> is entirely possible to dispossess private capital of its holdings
> w/out de-industrializing. In fact, the Bolsheviks argued the opposite
> (w/some support from Marx): private ownership was a barrier to more
> completely industrializing society (ie through "development").
>
> I hope this clarifies my views a bit. I welcome further responses.
>
> best,
>
> Omar
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Ashish Kothari [chikikothari at gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 29, 2018 4:14 AM
> *To:* Dunu Roy
> *Cc:* WSM; ACKNOWL-EJ list; Beyond Development (global); KV Full;
> Coalition for EJ in India; Pallav Das; Omar h Dahbour
> *Subject:* Re: New article on REDWeb: Marx and Political Ecology
>
> Precisely why instead of a simple cryptic one-liner, Dunu, your
> original mail itself could have elaborated the point you're making.
> that way not only the author but others too know or can understand
> what you're talking about. I for one had no idea what you were
> implying in that one line, and admittedly I'm rather ignorant about
> these things, but there may be a few others, so it would be nice if
> you humour us by sending more explanatory comments.
>
> Omar, pl. see if you'd like to respond to Dunu's point?
>
> thanks,
>
> ashish
>
>
> NEW!’Alternative Futures: India Unshackled’,https://www.amazon.in/dp/B077S479W4
> and
> www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org
>
> Ashish Kothari
> Kalpavriksh
> Apt 5 Shree Datta Krupa
> 908 Deccan Gymkhana
> Pune 411004, India
> Tel: 91-20-25654239; 91-20-25675450
> http://kalpavriksh.org
> www.vikalpsangam.org
> www.iccaconsortium.org
> www.acknowlej.org
> http://ashishkothari51.blogspot.in/
> Twitter: @chikikothari
>
> On 28/12/18 11:23 AM, Dunu Roy wrote:
>> It's not so much about a response article as it is about a reader's
>> perception about whether one should keep treating Marx as a prophet
>> (which he arguably never was, despite his overwhelming beard and
>> language) who has been (or has to be) proved 'wrong' as history
>> unfolds, or analyse whether the method of dialectical analysis he put
>> forward (as a social scientist) has merit even under changed
>> circumstances. This is something which other readers can also think
>> about and comment on rather than remain silent and let things pass.
>> That is, if you want your site to be one of debate and discussion
>> rather than mere discourse!
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 27, 2018 at 11:33 PM Ashish Kothari
>> <chikikothari at gmail.com <mailto:chikikothari at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> That's hit and run, Dunu. Do a response article, we'll publish it!
>>
>> ashish
>>
>> NEW!’Alternative Futures: India Unshackled’,https://www.amazon.in/dp/B077S479W4
>> and
>> www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org
>> <http://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org>
>>
>> Ashish Kothari
>> Kalpavriksh
>> Apt 5 Shree Datta Krupa
>> 908 Deccan Gymkhana
>> Pune 411004, India
>> Tel: 91-20-25654239; 91-20-25675450
>> http://kalpavriksh.org
>> www.vikalpsangam.org <http://www.vikalpsangam.org>
>> www.iccaconsortium.org <http://www.iccaconsortium.org>
>> www.acknowlej.org <http://www.acknowlej.org>
>> http://ashishkothari51.blogspot.in/
>> Twitter: @chikikothari
>>
>> On 27/12/18 10:53 PM, Dunu Roy wrote:
>>> Isn't Prof. Dahbour missing the forest on fire for the trees ?
>>>
>>> On Sat, Dec 22, 2018 at 5:13 PM Ashish Kothari
>>> <chikikothari at gmail.com <mailto:chikikothari at gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> This article on Marx and Political Ecology may be of
>>> interest. The author Omar Dabour is copied here in case
>>> anyone wants to contact him
>>>
>>> ashish
>>>
>>> NEW!’Alternative Futures: India Unshackled’,https://www.amazon.in/dp/B077S479W4
>>> and
>>> www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org
>>> <http://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org>
>>>
>>> Ashish Kothari
>>> Kalpavriksh
>>> Apt 5 Shree Datta Krupa
>>> 908 Deccan Gymkhana
>>> Pune 411004, India
>>> Tel: 91-20-25654239; 91-20-25675450
>>> http://kalpavriksh.org
>>> www.vikalpsangam.org <http://www.vikalpsangam.org>
>>> www.iccaconsortium.org <http://www.iccaconsortium.org>
>>> www.acknowlej.org <http://www.acknowlej.org>
>>> http://ashishkothari51.blogspot.in/
>>> Twitter: @chikikothari
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>>> Subject: [REDlistserve] New article on REDWeb
>>> Date: Fri, 21 Dec 2018 12:19:31 -0500
>>> From: Pallav Das <dpallav at gmail.com>
>>> <mailto:dpallav at gmail.com>
>>> To: RED listserve
>>> <radical_ecological_democracy at googlegroups.com>
>>> <mailto:radical_ecological_democracy at googlegroups.com>,
>>> vikalp-sangam-list at googlegroups.com
>>> <mailto:vikalp-sangam-list at googlegroups.com>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear friends,
>>>
>>> A new article has been uploaded on the RED website. Omar
>>> Dahbour explains how Marxian theory could influence the
>>> evolving field of Political Ecology and help us craft
>>> alternative thinking and practice on addressing current
>>> environmental challenges. Please take a look and join the
>>> discussion on the issues raised in this article on the RED
>>> Discussion forum.
>>>
>>> https://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/redweb-anniversary-series-marx-and-political-ecology/
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Pallav
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>>
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