[WSMDiscuss] [REDlistserve] El Salvador looks to become first country in the world to adopt bitcoin as legal tender
Sajai Jose
sajaijose.poi at gmail.com
Mon Jun 14 06:50:17 CEST 2021
Dear Tom,
The nuclear solution has been embraced by, among others, some of the
biggest 'green saints' - for eg. the two Jameses (Hansen & Lovelock) and
one George (Monbiot). Scientists in their ivory towers can be forgiven for
such eccentricities (though the harm is greater given their greater
prestige) but Monbiot's turn, him being an activist with feet on the
ground, was especially disappointing to me personally.
Again, this is not to start a debate about the pros and cons of nuclear -
but to point out that if industrial/finance/digital/whatever capitalism,
and its attendant consumer culture and lifestyles (indeed, its underlying
reductively materialistic worldview), etc is the problem, then any hi-tech,
centralised solution will only add to the problem, and therefore cannot be
a part of the solution. At best, it may bring short-term benefits (usually
outweighed by long-term harm), at worst it will make the problem worse.
It's the same with the other 'solutions' proposed for the so-called energy
transition.
This isn't merely an ideological argument - this has been the case of all
such top-down solutions - ie, solutions that are proposed from within the
system, or within its ideological and political-economic framework
(sometimes shared by those opposed to it for other reasons). for eg. in the
case of solar, wind etc, there is a case to be argued that it is
counterproductive even when it comes to emissions - that is, even without
counting its ecological costs in terms of extraction, waste etc [ie, the
fossil fuels we will need to burn to replace the world's fossil fuel
infrastructure with renewables under the present rate of energy consumption
will put so much carbon into the atmosphere in the short term - and the
short term is what counts when it comes to climate change given tipping
points - as to make it worse]
[A discussion from 2016 of the costs vs benefits of (mainly on solar
photo-voltaic tech) can be found here:]
https://ecologise.in/2016/06/15/the-real-energy-efficiency-of-solar-photovoltaic-systems-a-debate/
Frank,
I have serious doubts about the claims you make for bitcoin; again, not in
a pros and cons sense, but on structural terms:
1] this so so called counter-technology is entirely dependent on the
infrastructure of industrial capitalism - from electricity to computer
hardware - and thus permanently beholden to the state and big corporations
at some level. the level of complexity involved ensures that it will always
remain the playground of the elect - the technical whizkids.
2] the more high stakes it gets, the more the big players will want a piece
of the action - always the path to doom. the differences apart, i see a
parallel between bitcoin miners and hackers. once celebrated as freedom
fighters, the hackers got carved up in no time - the more reckless ones by
organised crime, and the tamer ones by big corporations and governments -
the original cause remains a minority pursuit, indulged by the likes of
Anonymous.
3] if it feels and sounds and looks like a gold rush, it is a gold rush -
or at least, has become one - however we dress it up. this is not to diss
gold rushes, they too were liberatory, but in the way capitalism always
has been - partially and ephemerally. but finally, a gold rush is a gold
rush, and no more.
And this is just political economy. The ecological dimension is in addition
to this. Globally, we are on the brink of ecological and climatic collapse
- the stakes cannot be higher, so in the big picture view, the bitcoin rush
is a minor sideshow, or a distraction. Yet another speechifying false
prophet of the end times, like renewable energy. The nuclear visions of the
green saints fall in the same category. There may be compelling reasons for
such pseudo-solutions to be generated constantly [geopolitics for eg.] -
but this does not change in anyway the essential truth about them being
inappropriate, inadequate or, worst of all, counterproductive. This brings
us back to question - why then are these solutions implemented, and for
whom?
I will sign off with some quotes
this is by from Samuel Alexander's 'Sufficiency Economy'
http://samuelalexander.info/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Sufficiency-Economy-Samuel-Alexander.pdf
If a society does not have some vision of where it wants to be or
what it wants to become, it cannot know whether it is heading in the
right direction – it cannot even know whether it is lost. This is the
confused position of consumer capitalism today, which has a fetish
for economic growth but no answer to the question of what that
growth is supposed to be for. It is simply assumed that growth is
good for its own sake, but of course economic activity is merely a
means, not an end. It can only ever be justified by some goal beyond
itself, but that is precisely what consumer capitalism lacks – a
purpose, a reason for existence. It is a means without an end, like a
tool without a task. What makes this state of affairs all the more
challenging is that the era of growth economics appears to be
coming to a close, due to various financial, ecological, and energy
constraints, and this is leaving growth-based economies without the
very capacity for growth which defined them historically. Before
long this will render consumer capitalism an obsolete system with
neither a means nor an end, a situation that is in fact materialising
before our very eyes.
this is from Ted Trainer's “But Can’t Technical Advance Solve the Problems?”
https://damnthematrix.wordpress.com/2016/07/16/but-cant-technical-advance-solve-the-problems/
Because technology has achieved many wonders it is assumed that it will
come up with the required solutions, somehow. This is as rational as
someone saying, “I have a very serious lung disease, but I still smoke five
packs of cigarettes a day, because technical advance could come up with a
cure for my disease.” This argument is perfectly true… and perfectly
idiotic. If you are on a path that is clearly leading to disaster the
sensible thing is to get off it. If technology does come up with solutions
then it might make sense to get back on that path again.
The tech-fix optimist *should be challenged to show in detail what are the
grounds for us accepting that solutions will be found, to each and every
one of the big problems we face*. What precisely might solve the
biodiversity loss problem, the water shortage, the scarcity of phosphorus,
the collapse of fish stocks, etc., and how likely are these possible
beak-throughs? Does it not make better sense to change from the
lifestyles and systems that are causing these problems, at least until we
can see that we can solve the resulting problems?
It should be stressed that the argument here is not to deny or undervalue
the many astounding advances being made all the time in fields like
medicine, astronomy, genetics, sub-atomic physics and IT, or to imply that
these will not continue. The point is that technical advance is very
unlikely to come up with *ways that solve the resource and environmental
problems being generated by affluent lifestyles*. The argument is that
when the magnitude of the task (above) and the evidence on the significance
of technical advance for resource and ecological problems is considered
(below), tech-fix faith is seen to be extremely unwarranted … and the
solutions have to be sought in terms of shifting to a Simpler Way of some
kind.
A comprehensive collection of articles and books by Trainer and Alexander
is available here
https://simplicityinstitute.org/publications
Finally, here is Bookchin:
“To speak of ‘limits to growth’ under a capitalistic market economy is as
meaningless as to speak of limits of warfare under a warrior society. The
moral pieties, that are voiced today by many well-meaning
environmentalists, are as naive as the moral pieties of multinationals are
manipulative. Capitalism can no more be ‘persuaded’ to limit growth than a
human being can be ‘persuaded’ to stop breathing. Attempts to ‘green’
capitalism, to make it ‘ecological’, are doomed by the very nature of the
system as a system of endless growth.”_
— *Murray Bookchin*
On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 8:11 PM Frank Kashner <fkashner at gmail.com> wrote:
> Alex and Sajai, thank you for your responses. I had not seen this article
> and I encourage people to read it.
>
> This Is What Happens When Bitcoin Miners Take Over Your Town'
>
>
> https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/03/09/bitcoin-mining-energy-prices-smalltown-feature-217230/
>
> At first, it sounds like a horror story. So much (wasted?) energy. For
> what? Much of the discussion on this forum has focused on bitcoin mining
> and its ecological and social impact. Yes, it is like a gold rush, the gold
> being otherwise wasted, inexpensive electricity turned into bitcoin rather
> than, literally, water over the dam.
>
> Notice that the amazing capacity of those hydroelectric dams was created
> for a now gone aluminium industry and a soon to be gone demand from
> California that is increasingly fulfilled by more local solar and wind
> generation. The author fails to account for the enormous economic benefit
> gained by the public power company through the sale of power to the miners,
> and its beneficial effects. (New road? Schools? Hospitals? - I don’t know)
>
> Patrick, you point out that Bitcoin is a good vehicle for capital to flee
> a country. Prior to Bitcoin did capital ever have a problem fleeing any
> country? Something new is that Bitcoin is a good vehicle for capital to
> enter a country via millions of small dollar remittances, from first to
> third world countries, previously ripped off by Western Union and other
> vultures.
>
> Matt, thank you for the defense of Woody. I am not going to use this
> forum to describe what I find amazing about Bitcoin and how it is
> developing. That information is readily available on the web, or, for some
> of you, from your children or others of that generation. It is a mistake to
> lump it together with the corporate and governmental arms of our
> surveillance states, or with AI or other “4th generation” labor and freedom
> undermining technologies.
>
>
> On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 8:45 AM Tom Abeles via WSM-Discuss <
> wsm-discuss at lists.openspaceforum.net> wrote:
>
>> Hi Sajai
>> regarding solar/wind and biomass renewables, there is a question
>> regarding quantity that can be produced and the cost. More importantly,
>> there is a question of time to get needed energy installed. There are those
>> in the renewables/sustainable energy area who are pro nuclear but biting
>> their tongue to not be pilloried by the renewable folk. These are the new
>> small, modular, reactors that provide power and industrial level heat.
>> There are operational units and research is ongoing in China, Russia, US
>> and other countries.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 9:58 PM Sajai Jose <sajaijose.poi at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Matt,
>>>
>>> I happen to agree with you. There was no need to drag poor old Woody
>>> Guthrie into this. (just to clarify, i was suggesting that this was
>>> essentially a conversation between the settlers - with Guthrie giving voice
>>> to the commoners who felt cheated out of their Promised Land. but that's a
>>> whole other debate which we needn't get into here). Saying this because I
>>> don't want the main point to get side-tracked.
>>>
>>> I suppose I was too shocked by the Politico article [here's it again]
>>>
>>> https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/03/09/bitcoin-mining-energy-prices-smalltown-feature-217230/
>>> I was always under the impression that bitcoin was a relatively harmless
>>> pastime for those who want to play rebel in the cool shade of the
>>> capitalist umbrella. It is clearly much more than that, with far greater
>>> potential for positive change as Frank pointed out, but also far greater
>>> destructive potential [both socially and ecologically] than i myself had
>>> realised.
>>>
>>> however, im convinced that it would be a mistake to make this about
>>> weighing bitcoin's good against its bad [so to speak] - that's a debate
>>> that can and will go on endlessly, because both sides will have lot of
>>> 'evidence' to support their case. But the debate is framed thus for a
>>> reason - it distracts from the real problem. which is that such
>>> pseudo-solutions that operate within the system's framework give it fresh
>>> legitimacy, sow confusion in the majority, and ultimately make them
>>> acquiesce with its larger destructive work even when it has become visibly
>>> suicidal.
>>>
>>> 'Renewable energy' falls into this same category - perhaps the biggest
>>> pseudo-solution at work today. In fact, this particular debate is almost
>>> over. Most people are by now convinced that 'climate change is the
>>> problem' and 'renewable energy is the answer'. Who in 'polite society'
>>> (and polite society runs the world) will criticise solar energy today? Or
>>> wind power? It would be almost like arguing against the sun and the wind
>>> themselves, something absurd. Never mind the facts - whether its the
>>> question of net energy or the sea bed being ripped up. Or the added
>>> emissions, of all things!
>>>
>>> But we must continue to interrupt polite society, rudely if necessary.
>>> In fact, each of these pseudo-solutions is an opportunity for us to expose
>>> them, and also point to the systemic nature of the problem.
>>>
>>> Over and out.
>>>
>>> regards
>>>
>>> Sajai
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 10:03 PM Matt Meyer <
>>> resistanceinbrooklyn.ows at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear comrades,
>>>>
>>>> I'm having a little trouble taking this otherwise fascinating and
>>>> cogent exchange seriously when the otherwise insightful Brother Sajai
>>>> appears to get Woody Guthrie's magical words a bit wrong! Of course Woody
>>>> understood that "this land" didn't literally belong to you and me...that's
>>>> the whole point of the song! It is a revolutionary aspirational vision
>>>> based on what should be and perhaps could be with a massive shift in
>>>> consciousness and subsequent political action! If we all truly believed
>>>> that the land was yours and mine - not the thieves who stole and occupy it
>>>> - we might make the kind of revolution (there's that word again!) which
>>>> Woody was trying to fight for and build.
>>>>
>>>> Could there be parallels here to cryptocurrency? In reality, it is
>>>> still tied too closely to the power brokers who control all currency,
>>>> wealth, and related economic power. Aspirationaly, however, might it have
>>>> the potential to envision the shifts which Frank writes about?
>>>>
>>>> MattM
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 11:30 PM Sajai Jose via WSM-Discuss <
>>>> wsm-discuss at lists.openspaceforum.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Frank,
>>>>>
>>>>> You seem to understand bitcoin, and see it as a positive development
>>>>> overall.
>>>>>
>>>>> This Is What Happens When Bitcoin Miners Take Over Your Town'
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/03/09/bitcoin-mining-energy-prices-smalltown-feature-217230/
>>>>>
>>>>> i also read this article, which Alex posted - truly a horrifying
>>>>> picture, and somewhat incomprehensible to someone like me who is far
>>>>> removed from the site of action. going by this, it seems to be just another
>>>>> gold rush, one that makes fortunes for some, and leaves behind a lot of
>>>>> wreckage, socially and materially [that is also to say, ecologically]. its
>>>>> net effect seems to me destructive on all these counts - despite the gas it
>>>>> keeps from flaring [surely an unintended grace].
>>>>>
>>>>> People who understand technology tend to be technophiles (as with
>>>>> everything else, there are exceptions), and seem to always concentrate on
>>>>> its positive side. That is to say, technology shapes their attitude, as
>>>>> invariably happens when you engage with something much bigger than you.
>>>>>
>>>>> On the other hand, those who don't understand it are likely to be
>>>>> technophobic at some level, focusing on the negative aspect [i'll admit to
>>>>> being one of these. that is to say, my attitude to technology is shaped by
>>>>> my ignorance of it, just as yours is shaped by your knowledge of it]. So
>>>>> this may be a dialogue between two people with no common language, held
>>>>> across a chasm that possibly cannot be bridged.
>>>>> With that caveat, I feel that the part of the problem is how you
>>>>> approach it - do you look at the part or the whole? I feel Woody Guthrie
>>>>> was wrong, a dictator is just a king who controls the electricity, so to
>>>>> speak. Which king ever enjoyed the kind of power, or exert the kind of
>>>>> control, that the average dictator holds? And where else does this power
>>>>> and control come from but 'electricity', that is to say, from the grid,
>>>>> from technology? [incidentally, this was not the only thing he was wrong
>>>>> about - that land does not belong to "you and me" - but he made good music,
>>>>> so all is forgiven]
>>>>>
>>>>> if you look at the part, you only see the many incremental gains and
>>>>> the many scattered and [likely] transient liberations [for some] that
>>>>> technology has brought about - if you look at the whole, you see a global
>>>>> techno-industrial civilisation, the technosphere that has become a parasite
>>>>> on the biosphere, [quite apart from its direct human and social costs] has
>>>>> altered or destabilised every planetary system and has endangered life
>>>>> itself. .
>>>>>
>>>>> the benefits - political or social or economic - brought by technology
>>>>> are incremental and transient, but the costs are cumulative and permanent.
>>>>> climate change alone, for example, can undo all the so-called gains of the
>>>>> modern era, while simultaneously victimising further most of the indigenous
>>>>> peoples of the world and the exploited masses who have already had to bear
>>>>> the cost of building the modern techno-industrial system, apart from the
>>>>> destruction of other species. their fate resembles those prisoners in the
>>>>> gulag who were forced to dig their own graves.
>>>>>
>>>>> how do two centuries of convenience and prosperity for some weigh
>>>>> against the destruction of indigenous and subject peoples across the world,
>>>>> and destabilisation of the very systems that support life? to defend the
>>>>> incremental gains and transient liberations of technology [by this i mean
>>>>> modern industrial technology - technology in its broadest sense is a
>>>>> different matter altogether] is to apologise for this life-destroying
>>>>> system, and ultimately to commit collective suicide.
>>>>>
>>>>> to sum up, at the very least, we need to rethink technology: its
>>>>> scale, its complexity, its political economy, its benefits vs its cost, its
>>>>> purpose, whether its present form can be altered, and so on. [Its a
>>>>> different matter whether we can, though. After all, the genie's been long
>>>>> out of the bottle - and seems to like it there. It will probably have to
>>>>> run its course.]
>>>>>
>>>>> Looking forward to your response
>>>>>
>>>>> Sajai
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 3:44 AM Frank Kashner via WSM-Discuss <
>>>>> wsm-discuss at lists.openspaceforum.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Jai, I replied to post earlier but made the mistake of changing the
>>>>>> topic. I hope this gets to the list. Thanks, Frank
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bitcoin creation, aka mining, is an energy intensive process that
>>>>>> secures a secure, worldwide, decentralized network. When mining energy
>>>>>> comes from coal, it is as polluting as any other coal electrical
>>>>>> generation. When the energy comes from otherwise unused hydroelectric,
>>>>>> solar, or gas that would otherwise be flared, it is energy saving.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> For China, the question of shutting down coal reliant bitcoin mines
>>>>>> overlaps their use of coal in general, including building new coal burning
>>>>>> plants. China also overbuilt many hydroelectric plants, anticipating
>>>>>> population growth in the future. Bitcoin miners at those plants were
>>>>>> supplanted by the plant operators themselves, who support entire
>>>>>> communities by mining otherwise wasted capacity. Nigeria is leading Africa
>>>>>> in peer to peer adoption.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Every regime, especially the US, as the owner of the world’s reserve
>>>>>> currency, must decide how they will respond to bitcoin, a decentralized and
>>>>>> deflationary currency over which they have little control. Many countries
>>>>>> are considering issuing their own national “coin”, that is, a digital
>>>>>> dollar, or yuan, or Euro which they would control. The only thing these
>>>>>> coins have in common with Bitcoin is that they are digital. Venezuela
>>>>>> already issued one which was a flop.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Whether bitcoin challenges capitalism is like asking, did electricity
>>>>>> end feudalism? The advancement of democracy has a relationship to
>>>>>> technological progress, but seldom in a straight line. At a time of great
>>>>>> ideological debate, Woody Guthrie famously said, “Don't like
>>>>>> dictators not much, myself, But I think the whole country ought to
>>>>>> be run. By electricity!”
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Everyone on this list should become familiar with Bitcoin. It will
>>>>>> be considered as important an invention as the Internet itself. While it
>>>>>> does not change the distribution of wealth at the top, it offers people at
>>>>>> the middle and bottom ways to send money home quickly and cheaply, a
>>>>>> “banking system” that does not require banks, and, for those who can save
>>>>>> anything, a way to escape hyper-inflation. When the Venezuelan military
>>>>>> confiscates mining equipment, they then re-install and operate it
>>>>>> themselves.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> At minimum, Bitcoin is replacing gold as a store of value, despite
>>>>>> its wild price fluctuations. Coupled with the Lightning network, it will
>>>>>> offer a world wide disintermediated payment system. It is a cryptographic,
>>>>>> mathematical, and programmatic advancement. Julian Assange argues that
>>>>>> cryptography is a most important tool for anyone who wants ways to be
>>>>>> independent of surveillance states, which now include almost every
>>>>>> government in the world.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It is being used by countries under US sanctions to continue economic
>>>>>> activity, and by individuals around the world to exchange value with others
>>>>>> within and outside of their own country. Iran suspended bitcoin mining only
>>>>>> for a few peak energy months and will resume after that. It is entirely
>>>>>> different from India’s demonetization policy which was a vehicle to steal
>>>>>> billions from the people of India.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> While many people associated with Bitcoin can be characterized as
>>>>>> Libertarian Conservatives, there is room and need for Libertarian
>>>>>> Socialists to find ideological footing.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 2:15 PM Jai Sen <jai.sen at cacim.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thursday, June 10, 2021
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hello, to all those who have replied to / otherwise engaged with my
>>>>>>> post back on Monday, June 7
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (Just to make this clear, though I’m replying here
>>>>>>> immediately to a post and exchange that took place only on WSMDiscuss, till
>>>>>>> three posts ago the exchange on this issue was vigorously taking place both
>>>>>>> on WSMDiscuss and on RED – and with some very useful points made by RED
>>>>>>> subscribers cc to WSMDiscuss; and I'm therefore ccing RED back in here.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In some ways, and in particular, and speaking only for
>>>>>>> myself of course, thanks to all those who have posted links towards better
>>>>>>> understanding just what Bitcoins are and what the Bitcoin economy is about,
>>>>>>> and also raising associated issues such as energy related. (And even if I
>>>>>>> openly admit that I haven’t been able to look at all of them – this
>>>>>>> overload being one of the problems of the ease of giving links ! : -) )
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This said, and while I appreciate that it is of course
>>>>>>> important to know what Bitcoins are and what the Bitcoin economy is about –
>>>>>>> including its wider implications -, my sense is that we’ve not yet
>>>>>>> addressed the (other) fundamental issue that I tried to raise in my
>>>>>>> original post :
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “… the part that interests me is the social (and political) basis on
>>>>>>> which El Salvador’s President is selling his move : *That it will
>>>>>>> “include” the “70% of El Salvador’s population does not have a bank account
>>>>>>> and works in the informal economy”*. [And specifically, the
>>>>>>> president Nayib Bukele arguing that what he’s doing is ‘all about and for
>>>>>>> the majority that is poor / the migrant workers / etc’.] Any comments,
>>>>>>> from those who understand this field ? Because the implications, and
>>>>>>> repercussions, of this step are huge, for economies – and rulers - across
>>>>>>> the world.”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As I see it, this is an argument in favour of bitcoin
>>>>>>> I’ve not heard before, but is of course a populist rationale that I’m sure
>>>>>>> will now be picked up widely, by leaders of government and public opinion
>>>>>>> elsewhere, from the right and the left, and citing this case. Just as,
>>>>>>> say, so-called ‘demonetisation’ was enacted and sold in India, a few years
>>>>>>> ago, in the name of breaking the so-called ‘black market’ economy, and
>>>>>>> through this, ‘saving the poor’. (And was therefore actually a massive
>>>>>>> assault on the poor and on the so-called ‘informal sector’, and especially
>>>>>>> on women in this sector.)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And so where we who are critical of this, and who are alive to the
>>>>>>> dangers of populist policies, therefore need now to engage with this aspect
>>>>>>> – and try and take positions on what ‘we’ want to do about this within the
>>>>>>> contexts we live and work in.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Any comments ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jai
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jun 8, 2021, at 1:51 PM, Brian <brian at radicalroad.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Indeed. And consider as well the qualities of the Bukele regime in
>>>>>>> El Salvador, and whose interests such a policy actually intends to
>>>>>>> serve...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://thebaffler.com/latest/new-problems-old-ideas-gressier
>>>>>>> <https://thebaffler.com/latest/new-problems-old-ideas-gressier?utm_source=Baffler+Readers&utm_campaign=4c4ca1c2d2-weekly_05262021&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_3541d01f8a-4c4ca1c2d2-46810876>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> New Problems, Old Ideas Nayib Bukele dismantles El Salvador’s
>>>>>>> fledgling democracy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roman Gressier <https://thebaffler.com/authors/roman-gressier>, *The
>>>>>>> Baffler*, May 20, 2021
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 8 Jun 2021, at 10:33 am, francine mestrum via WSM-Discuss <
>>>>>>> wsm-discuss at lists.openspaceforum.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> please do not ignore the gigantic energy consumption it requires.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Francine
>>>>>>> On 08/06/2021 12:00, Rosamma Thomas via WSM-Discuss wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/08/bitcoin-btc-price-slides-as-us-seizes-most-of-colonial-ransom.html?__source=sharebar|twitter&par=sharebar
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 8, 2021 at 3:27 PM helena <h.paul at gn.apc.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Just quick thoughts:
>>>>>>>> I would call cryptocurrencies ultimate capitalism. Currencies in
>>>>>>>> markets change value all the time. The changes with crypto are so much
>>>>>>>> bigger.
>>>>>>>> 'Blockchain makes decentralisation possible….' Yes for those who
>>>>>>>> are in, not for those who are outside that blockchain.
>>>>>>>> I think Iran found its electricity supply seriously depleted
>>>>>>>> because crypto-operators had moved in – this is a real problem.
>>>>>>>> El Salvador is a fearsome regime, isn’t it, with people fleeing
>>>>>>>> from it constantly?
>>>>>>>> Helena
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> From: <radical_ecological_democracy at googlegroups.com> on behalf of
>>>>>>>> Ashish Kothari <ashishkothari at riseup.net>
>>>>>>>> Date: Tuesday, 8 June 2021 at 10:46
>>>>>>>> To: James Pochury <jamespoch at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> Cc: Post WSMDiscuss <wsm-discuss at lists.openspaceforum.net>, Post
>>>>>>>> RED <radical_ecological_democracy at googlegroups.com>
>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [REDlistserve] El Salvador looks to become first
>>>>>>>> country in the world to adopt bitcoin as legal tender
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But what about this? (and there are many more such reports):
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/feb/27/bitcoin-mining-electricity-use-environmental-impact
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Democracy that comes at a huge ecological cost is not, well,
>>>>>>>> democracy! But, like Jai, then I don't understand much about all this, so
>>>>>>>> perhaps someoen can enlighten.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Also, are all cryptocurrencies likely to cause such ecological
>>>>>>>> impacts, or are some different ...and if so, how?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I also did not understand this, James: "blockchain is a network of
>>>>>>>> millions of computers .... makes decentralisation possible" ... and then
>>>>>>>> "authoritarian regimes don't want to let in existing cryptos ... would
>>>>>>>> ratehr create their own Blockchain & crypto currency" ... now is
>>>>>>>> blockchain/cryptos are inherently decentralised, would not authoritarian
>>>>>>>> regimes risk their own power by setting up their own?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Finally, do any of these fundamentally challenge capitalism (and in
>>>>>>>> the above qs, statism), or are they 'reforms' within the existing
>>>>>>>> structures?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> thanks to anyone, who can respond to these qs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ashish
>>>>>>>> On 08/06/21 3:03 pm, James Pochury wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> One bitcoin had almost touched 50,000 USD. Right now it is hovering
>>>>>>>> around 36,000. You can own a fraction of bitcoin, including by giving a
>>>>>>>> fraction to the 70% of the informal economy and over a period of time, the
>>>>>>>> value increases benefitting them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There are atleast 5000 cryptocurrencies and counting. Etherium is
>>>>>>>> at no. 2 in terms of value.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The decentralised nature of cryptocurrency, with crowdfunding
>>>>>>>> approach in many cases, makes it a viable and political project with huge
>>>>>>>> potential for the masses.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Blockchain technology is the engine that drives cryptocurrency.
>>>>>>>> Blockchain is a network of millions of computers across the world wired
>>>>>>>> together through a software platform. Blockchain makes decentralisation
>>>>>>>> possible. A reason why authoritarian regimes don't want to let in existing
>>>>>>>> cryptos into their countries. They would rather create their own Blockchain
>>>>>>>> and crypto currency.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Blockchain is also poised to be used for many other sectors,
>>>>>>>> including financial, health, educational institutions, communications,
>>>>>>>> transportation, trade, etc.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> James
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Jun 2021, 02:01 Jai Sen, <jai.sen at cacim.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Monday, June 7, 2021
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *El Salvador in movement…, **Ideas in movement…, **History in
>>>>>>>>> movement…, Economies in movement…*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [I know nothing about Bitcoin, and my last attempt – this last
>>>>>>>>> weekend - to try to understand (by reading an article on it) resulted in my
>>>>>>>>> bailing out. But that’s not the point : A day later, I see this article,
>>>>>>>>> and the part that interests me is the social (and political) basis on which
>>>>>>>>> E; Salvador’s President is selling his move : *That it will
>>>>>>>>> “include” the “70% of El Salvador’s population does not have a bank account
>>>>>>>>> and works in the informal economy”*. Any comments, from those
>>>>>>>>> who understand this field ? Because it seems to me that the implications,
>>>>>>>>> and repercussions, of this step are huge, for economies – and rulers -
>>>>>>>>> across the world :
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> “Next week I will send to Congress a bill that will make Bitcoin a
>>>>>>>>> legal tender in El Salvador,” Bukele said in the message Saturday. “In the
>>>>>>>>> short term this will generate jobs and help provide financial inclusion to
>>>>>>>>> thousands outside the formal economy and in the medium and long term we
>>>>>>>>> hope that this small decision can help us push humanity at least a tiny bit
>>>>>>>>> into the right direction.”
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The U.S. dollar is El Salvador’s official currency. About one
>>>>>>>>> quarter of El Salvador’s citizens live in the United States and last year,
>>>>>>>>> despite the pandemic, they sent home more than $6 billion in remittances.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Stephen McKeon, a finance professor at the University of Oregon
>>>>>>>>> who studies cryptocurrencies, said Bitcoin is legal to own in most
>>>>>>>>> countries but has never been designated as legal tender, which would mean
>>>>>>>>> it could be used to to settle financial obligations, including taxes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But, he added, “It is unclear whether anyone desires to pay their
>>>>>>>>> taxes in Bitcoin.”
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Additional details of the plan were not released. But Bukele in
>>>>>>>>> subsequent messages on Twitter noted that Bitcoin could be “the fastest
>>>>>>>>> growing way to transfer six billion dollars a year in remittances.” He said
>>>>>>>>> that a big chunk of those money transfers were currently lost to
>>>>>>>>> intermediaries and with Bitcoin more than a million low-income families
>>>>>>>>> could benefit.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He also said 70% of El Salvador’s population does not have a bank
>>>>>>>>> account and works in the informal economy. Bitcoin could improve financial
>>>>>>>>> inclusion, he said.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> *El Salvador looks to become first country in the world to adopt
>>>>>>>>> bitcoin as legal tender*
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Associated Press
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/international-business/article-el-salvador-president-plans-to-make-bitcoin-legal-tender/?symbol=print-msg
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> El Salvador President Nayib Bukele, pictured after a news
>>>>>>>>> conference in San Salvador on June 6, 2021, wants to make Bitcoin legal
>>>>>>>>> tender in his country. (JOSE CABEZAS/Reuters)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> El Salvador President Nayib Bukele announced in a recorded message
>>>>>>>>> played at a Bitcoin conference in Miami that next week he will send
>>>>>>>>> proposed legislation to the country’s congress that would make the
>>>>>>>>> cryptocurrency legal tender in the Central American nation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The 39-year-old president, who has maintained approval ratings
>>>>>>>>> above 90% and made Twitter his preferred way of communicating,
>>>>>>>>> characterized it as an idea that could help El Salvador move forward.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> “Next week I will send to Congress a bill that will make Bitcoin a
>>>>>>>>> legal tender in El Salvador,” Bukele said in the message Saturday. “In the
>>>>>>>>> short term this will generate jobs and help provide financial inclusion to
>>>>>>>>> thousands outside the formal economy and in the medium and long term we
>>>>>>>>> hope that this small decision can help us push humanity at least a tiny bit
>>>>>>>>> into the right direction.”
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The U.S. dollar is El Salvador’s official currency. About one
>>>>>>>>> quarter of El Salvador’s citizens live in the United States and last year,
>>>>>>>>> despite the pandemic, they sent home more than $6 billion in remittances.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Stephen McKeon, a finance professor at the University of Oregon
>>>>>>>>> who studies cryptocurrencies, said Bitcoin is legal to own in most
>>>>>>>>> countries but has never been designated as legal tender, which would mean
>>>>>>>>> it could be used to to settle financial obligations, including taxes.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But, he added, “It is unclear whether anyone desires to pay their
>>>>>>>>> taxes in Bitcoin.”
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bukele’s New Ideas party holds a supermajority in the new congress
>>>>>>>>> seated May 1, giving any legislative proposal from the president a strong
>>>>>>>>> likelihood of passage.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Additional details of the plan were not released. But Bukele in
>>>>>>>>> subsequent messages on Twitter noted that Bitcoin could be “the fastest
>>>>>>>>> growing way to transfer six billion dollars a year in remittances.” He said
>>>>>>>>> that a big chunk of those money transfers were currently lost to
>>>>>>>>> intermediaries and with Bitcoin more than a million low-income families
>>>>>>>>> could benefit.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> He also said 70% of El Salvador’s population does not have a bank
>>>>>>>>> account and works in the informal economy. Bitcoin could improve financial
>>>>>>>>> inclusion, he said.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Riding his high popularity and his party’s dominance performance
>>>>>>>>> in Feb. 28 elections, Bukele has concentrated power. His party’s
>>>>>>>>> supermajority in congress ousted the justices of the Constitutional Chamber
>>>>>>>>> of the Supreme Court May 1. They then replaced the attorney general.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> They had been critical of some of Bukele’s more drastic measures
>>>>>>>>> during the pandemic, including a mandatory stay-at-home order and
>>>>>>>>> containment centres where those caught violating the policy were detained.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> While enjoying a positive relationship with former U.S. President
>>>>>>>>> Donald Trump, Bukele has had a much more tense relationship with the
>>>>>>>>> administration of President Joe Biden.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Last month, the White House Special Envoy for the Northern
>>>>>>>>> Triangle Ricardo Zuniga said during a visit to El Salvador that the U.S.
>>>>>>>>> government would like to see El Salvador reverse the moves against the
>>>>>>>>> court and the attorney general. Bukele said that would not happen.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bukele’s concentration of power, attacks on critics and open
>>>>>>>>> disdain for checks on his power have raised concerns about El Salvador’s
>>>>>>>>> path. However, Bukele has a wide base of support in part due to the utter
>>>>>>>>> failure of the country’s traditional parties who ruled during the past 30
>>>>>>>>> years to improve people’s lives and to his ability to provide short-term
>>>>>>>>> benefits.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bukele has been praised for aggressively obtaining COVID-19
>>>>>>>>> vaccines and running an efficient vaccination program far more successful
>>>>>>>>> than El Salvador’s neighbours.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> To reply to the author of this message, select "reply"; to reply
>>>>>>>>> to the whole list, select "reply to all".
>>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>>>>> Groups "Radical Ecological Democracy" group.
>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>>>>>>> send an email to
>>>>>>>>> radical_ecological_democracy+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit
>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/875DFE51-600A-455D-8C83-7D2155B54394%40cacim.net
>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/875DFE51-600A-455D-8C83-7D2155B54394%40cacim.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> To reply to the author of this message, select "reply"; to reply to
>>>>>>>> the whole list, select "reply to all".
>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>>>> Groups "Radical Ecological Democracy" group.
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>>>>>> send an email to
>>>>>>>> radical_ecological_democracy+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit
>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/CA%2Bgr59ojWD6KQ1qhrd_jvo%3DgYMWo3TSdjcNyxHyW9TQpg%3DWb-Q%40mail.gmail.com
>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/CA%2Bgr59ojWD6KQ1qhrd_jvo%3DgYMWo3TSdjcNyxHyW9TQpg%3DWb-Q%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> New, for COVID relief in India! Vikalp Sutra
>>>>>>>> <https://sutra.vikalpsangam.org/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> NOW FREE DOWNLOAD! Pluriverse: A Post-Development Dictionary
>>>>>>>> <https://radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/pluriverse>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ashish Kothari
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kalpavriksh
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Apt 5 Shree Datta Krupa
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 908 Deccan Gymkhana
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pune 411004, India
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tel: 91-20-25654239; 91-20-25675450
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kalpavriksh <https://kalpavriksh.org/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Vikalp Sangam <http://vikalpsangam.org/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Radical Ecological Democracy
>>>>>>>> <http://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Global Tapestry of Alternatives
>>>>>>>> <http://www.globaltapestryofalternatives.org/>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> https://ashishkothari51.blogspot.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Twitter <https://twitter.com/chikikothari> LinkedIn
>>>>>>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/ashishkothari1961> Instagram
>>>>>>>> <https://www.instagram.com/ashishkotharivikalp/> Facebook
>>>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ashish.kothari.1297>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> To reply to the author of this message, select "reply"; to reply to
>>>>>>>> the whole list, select "reply to all".
>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>>>> Groups "Radical Ecological Democracy" group.
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>>>>>> send an email to
>>>>>>>> radical_ecological_democracy+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit
>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/65d72abb-99fc-7117-fbee-1b50f14a447a%40riseup.net
>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/65d72abb-99fc-7117-fbee-1b50f14a447a%40riseup.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> To reply to the author of this message, select "reply"; to reply to
>>>>>>>> the whole list, select "reply to all".
>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>>>>>> Groups "Radical Ecological Democracy" group.
>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>>>>>> send an email to
>>>>>>>> radical_ecological_democracy+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit
>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/DCE4FC4F.164488%25h.paul%40gn.apc.org
>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/DCE4FC4F.164488%25h.paul%40gn.apc.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>>> ** Inspired by the World Social Forum, WSMDiscuss – the successor to a list named ‘WSFDiscuss’ started in 2005 - is an open, unmoderated, and self-organising forum for the exchange of information and views on the experience, practice, and theory of social and political movement at any level (local, national, regional, and global), including the World Social Forum. Join in ! **
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>>>>>>> ** Inspired by the World Social Forum, WSMDiscuss – the successor to
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Visit: https://murphyslog.ca
>>>>>>> Twitter: @BrianKMurphy2
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>>> ** Inspired by the World Social Forum, WSMDiscuss – the successor to
>>>>>>> a list named ‘WSFDiscuss’ started in 2005 - is an open, unmoderated, and
>>>>>>> self-organising forum for the exchange of information and views on the
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ____________________________
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jai Sen
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Independent researcher, editor; Senior Fellow at the School of
>>>>>>> International Development and Globalisation Studies at the University of
>>>>>>> Ottawa
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> jai.sen at cacim.net & <jsen at uottawa.ca>jsen at uottawa.ca
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Now based in Ottawa, Canada, on unsurrendered Anishinaabe territory (+1-613-282
>>>>>>> 2900) and in New Delhi, India (+91-98189 11325)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *Check out something new** – including for copies of the first two
>>>>>>> books below, at a discount, and much more : **The Movements of
>>>>>>> Movements <https://movementsofmovements.net/>*
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jai Sen, ed, 2017 – *The Movements of Movements, Part 1 : What
>>>>>>> Makes Us Move ?*. New Delhi : OpenWord and Oakland, CA : PM Press.
>>>>>>> Ebook and hard copy available at PM Press <http://www.pmpress.org/>
>>>>>>> ; hard copy only also at The Movements of Movements
>>>>>>> <https://movementsofmovements.net/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jai Sen, ed, 2018a – *The Movements of Movements, Part 2 :
>>>>>>> Rethinking Our Dance*. Ebook and hard copy available at PM Press
>>>>>>> <http://www.pmpress.org/>; hard copy only also at The Movements of
>>>>>>> Movements <https://movementsofmovements.net/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Jai Sen, ed, 2018b – *The Movements of Movements, Part 1 : What
>>>>>>> Makes Us Move ?* (Indian edition). New Delhi : AuthorsUpfront, in
>>>>>>> collaboration with OpenWord and PM Press. Hard copy available at
>>>>>>> MOM1AmazonIN
>>>>>>> <https://www.amazon.in/dp/9387280101/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1522884070&sr=8-2&keywords=movements+of+movements+jai+sen>
>>>>>>> , MOM1Flipkart
>>>>>>> <https://www.flipkart.com/the-movements-of-movements/p/itmf3zg7h79ecpgj?pid=9789387280106&lid=LSTBOK9789387280106NBA1CH&marketplace=FLIPKART&srno=s_1_1&otracker=search&fm=SEARCH&iid=ff35b702-e6a8-4423-b014-16c84f6f0092.9789387280106.SEARCH&ppt=Search%20Page>,
>>>>>>> and MOM1AUpFront <http://www.authorsupfront.com/movements.htm>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *SUBSCRIBE TO World Social Movement Discuss*, an open, unmoderated,
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ________________________________________
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>>>>>>> a list named ‘WSFDiscuss’ started in 2005 - is an open, unmoderated, and
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>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>> ** Inspired by the World Social Forum, WSMDiscuss – the successor to
>>>>>> a list named ‘WSFDiscuss’ started in 2005 - is an open, unmoderated, and
>>>>>> self-organising forum for the exchange of information and views on the
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>>>>>> level (local, national, regional, and global), including the World Social
>>>>>> Forum. Join in ! **
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <http://www.ecologise.in/>
>>>>> [image: https://twitter.com/EcologiseIndia]
>>>>> <https://twitter.com/EcologiseIndia> [image:
>>>>> https://www.facebook.com/SAPACCearth]
>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ecologise.in>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/call-it-by-its-true-name-declare-global-climate/>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> <https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/call-it-by-its-true-name-declare-global-climate/>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>> ** Inspired by the World Social Forum, WSMDiscuss – the successor to a
>>>>> list named ‘WSFDiscuss’ started in 2005 - is an open, unmoderated, and
>>>>> self-organising forum for the exchange of information and views on the
>>>>> experience, practice, and theory of social and political movement at any
>>>>> level (local, national, regional, and global), including the World Social
>>>>> Forum. Join in ! **
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <http://www.ecologise.in/>
>>> [image: https://twitter.com/EcologiseIndia]
>>> <https://twitter.com/EcologiseIndia> [image:
>>> https://www.facebook.com/SAPACCearth]
>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ecologise.in>
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/call-it-by-its-true-name-declare-global-climate/>
>>>
>>>
>>> <https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/call-it-by-its-true-name-declare-global-climate/>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> To reply to the author of this message, select "reply"; to reply to the
>>> whole list, select "reply to all".
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>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/CAMHFA4Ym_tEMsdFh8dMtcb9pg7SQhdsp_Ae1_9Zn0qLro74Q2g%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>> .
>>>
>> ________________________________________
>> ** Inspired by the World Social Forum, WSMDiscuss – the successor to a
>> list named ‘WSFDiscuss’ started in 2005 - is an open, unmoderated, and
>> self-organising forum for the exchange of information and views on the
>> experience, practice, and theory of social and political movement at any
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>>
>
--
<http://www.ecologise.in/>
[image: https://twitter.com/EcologiseIndia]
<https://twitter.com/EcologiseIndia> [image:
https://www.facebook.com/SAPACCearth]
<https://www.facebook.com/ecologise.in>
<https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/call-it-by-its-true-name-declare-global-climate/>
<https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/call-it-by-its-true-name-declare-global-climate/>
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