[WSMDiscuss] [REDlistserve] El Salvador looks to become first country in the world to adopt bitcoin as legal tender

[Sajai Jose]

Dear Tom,

I think the problem is not Kuznets or the GDP, or for that matter,
Economics, but the system that has enshrined Kuznets (and the likes of
him), the GDP and Economics as the high priest, deity and theology
respectively. It's the Church that makes the theology, and not the other
way round. And this was done for a very obvious reason - to enable greater
and greater accumulation, growth, profits. The social cost of this process,
the exploitation of labour, for eg. is 'collateral damage', while its
ecological cost is an 'externality.'

Georgescu-Roegen made the case half a century ago, as did the Limits to
Growth report. And more recently, Eleanor Ostrom. (I mention these because
they come from within the heart of the system, using criteria acceptable to
it, ie, 'scientific'. The common sense case against industrial capitalism
must have existed from the day it was born.) But, what was the response to
the Limits to Growth report's findings? An unprecedented expansion of
capital starting with the Thatcher-Reagan consensus, followed by four
decades of neo-liberalism.

In the intervening years, there have been countless official studies and
reports commissioned by governments that project doomsday like scenarios
[see links below for samples]. Then there are the IPCC reports on climate
change.  When we know all this, how can we pretend that the system resists
change because no one has made a case? Or because it doesn't know the facts
itself? Should we still think that the sham of renewable energy is being
promoted by a bunch of innocents?

You talk of a 'frame shift'  but your own preferred solutions [whether in
finance or energy] involves or requires no such thing. At least, nothing
even close to what we need (to survive as a species, not merely to feel
good about ourselves). Even if we leave out the question of safety and
waste disposal (taking your word for it) in nuclear, there remains the
question of infrastructure. The problem doesn't go away - building the
infrastructure for any alternative source on a scale large enough to
replace the world's fossil fuel infrastructure (built over the course of a
century) will likely use up so much fossil fuels (and consequently,
emissions) as to make the long term gains irrelevant.

regards,

Sajai

links
https://theintercept.com/2016/10/13/pentagon-video-warns-of-unavoidable-dystopian-future-for-worlds-biggest-cities/
US National Security Impacts of Natural Resources in 2020, 2030, and 2040
https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/NICR%202013-05%20US%20Nat%20Resources%202020,%202030%202040.pdf

<https://www.dni.gov/files/documents/NICR%202013-05%20US%20Nat%20Resources%202020,%202030%202040.pdf>

On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 9:36 PM Tom Abeles <tabeles at gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Sajai
>
> It has been long argued that GDP is a poor measure, but one that was
> expedient when Kuznets created it so that the government could determine
> how to pay for economic recovery. It has since been materialized. Thus
> whether one is pro growth, pro green growth, degrowth etc, GDP has become
> the "coin of the realm". It was the same when the kings and then the
> nobles, in England, did an assessment of the land income value in order to
> set tax rates. Until an alternative measure becomes accepted and not set up
> by making it convertable to GDP units we are in the same "boat". As long as
> we are tied to the financiers through leveraged borrowing (debt) the link
> can't be broken. An alternative needs to become accepted. Academics, for
> the most part have difficulty with a frame shift. It is happening in the
> private sector but needs the credibility of those who are in the
> communications arena to accept this as more than "it's an interesting idea
> with possibilities".
>
> As many have noted, the switch from concentrated energy sources such as
> fossil fuels to renewables is faced with the following challenges:
> a) quantity that can be supplied given the impact on the planetary
> resources
> b) the rate at which these can be taken to scale given the problems with
> climate
> c) the variable demand for power and the ability to respond in a timely
> manner
> d) only a concentrated power source that can't be met by a combination of
> production and storage in concert is required. At the moment  that is
> nuclear, particularly the new technologies that are becoming commercially
> available
>
> Frames are the critical matrix for addressing these and other issues
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 15, 2021 at 8:35 AM Sajai Jose <sajaijose.poi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear Tom,
>>
>> As the relatively more technologically privileged (privileged enough to
>> communicate this way), we are all in one way or the other implicated
>> (although with 'differentiated responsibilities"). Are we then to simply
>> celebrate it? Or silently acquiesce with it? (Even with a crime - not
>> just a scam - like 'renewable energy') What exactly is implied here?
>>
>> Sajai
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 6:36 PM Tom Abeles <tabeles at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> hi sajai
>>>
>>> It has been my contention that the idea of "growth" has been "baked into
>>> our thinking when the finance sector adopted the measure of productivity
>>> using Kuznet's GDP, not as an indicator but rather materializing it as a
>>> tangible object like so many dozen donuts. We are at a tipping point where
>>> other "measures" are seen as more substantive, such as "happiness" but as
>>> of the moment not fully present. I keep seeing the Transnational
>>> Institute's Change Finance, Not the Climate as an indicator. As George
>>> Lakoff has eloquently argued, to get change, change the "frame" otherwise
>>> you are in the world of ephemera like Hamlet and Polonius.
>>>
>>> The same holds for nuclear power generation where the changing of the
>>> technology has changed the "frame". Not all tech must be able to be fully
>>> understood by even the lay public, whether energy or the bits in your Mac
>>> Air, ipads and androids which are magic in your hands as you post to this
>>> website, or for some of us who are alive due to vaccines and arterial
>>> stents. The Chinese have learned their lessons when they sent their
>>> intellectuals to till the fields and today now have 5G technology that is
>>> ahead of the West, or Alibaba and their finance side, Ant, which brings
>>> unsecured micro loans as pioneered by Kenya's M-Pesa now copied by local
>>> ISP's. There is need for those ensconced in their "Ivory Towers" and those
>>> building community cooperatives at the grass roots levels.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 11:50 PM Sajai Jose <sajaijose.poi at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Tom,
>>>>
>>>> The nuclear solution has been embraced by, among others, some of the
>>>> biggest 'green saints' - for eg. the two Jameses (Hansen & Lovelock) and
>>>> one George (Monbiot). Scientists in their ivory towers can be forgiven for
>>>> such eccentricities (though the harm is greater given their greater
>>>> prestige) but Monbiot's turn, him being an activist with feet on the
>>>> ground, was especially disappointing to me personally.
>>>>
>>>> Again, this is not to start a debate about the pros and cons of nuclear
>>>> - but to point out that if industrial/finance/digital/whatever capitalism,
>>>> and its attendant consumer culture and lifestyles (indeed, its underlying
>>>> reductively materialistic worldview), etc is the problem, then any hi-tech,
>>>> centralised solution will only add to the problem, and therefore cannot be
>>>> a part of the solution. At best, it may bring short-term benefits (usually
>>>> outweighed by long-term harm), at worst it will make the problem worse.
>>>> It's the same with the other 'solutions' proposed for the so-called energy
>>>> transition.
>>>>
>>>> This isn't merely an ideological argument - this has been the case of
>>>> all such top-down solutions - ie, solutions that are proposed from within
>>>> the system, or within its ideological and political-economic framework
>>>> (sometimes shared by those opposed to it for other reasons). for eg. in the
>>>> case of solar, wind etc, there is a case to be argued that it is
>>>> counterproductive even when it comes to emissions - that is, even without
>>>> counting its ecological costs in terms of extraction, waste etc [ie, the
>>>> fossil fuels we will need to burn to replace the world's fossil fuel
>>>> infrastructure with renewables under the present rate of energy consumption
>>>> will put so much carbon into the atmosphere in the short term - and the
>>>> short term is what counts when it comes to climate change given tipping
>>>> points - as to make it worse]
>>>> [A discussion from 2016 of the costs vs benefits of (mainly on solar
>>>> photo-voltaic tech) can be found here:]
>>>>
>>>> https://ecologise.in/2016/06/15/the-real-energy-efficiency-of-solar-photovoltaic-systems-a-debate/
>>>>
>>>> Frank,
>>>>
>>>> I have serious doubts about the claims you make for bitcoin; again, not
>>>> in a pros and cons sense, but on structural terms:
>>>>
>>>> 1] this so so called counter-technology is entirely dependent on the
>>>> infrastructure of industrial capitalism - from electricity to computer
>>>> hardware - and thus permanently beholden to the state and big corporations
>>>> at some level. the level of complexity involved ensures that it will always
>>>> remain the playground of the elect - the technical whizkids.
>>>>
>>>> 2] the more high stakes it gets, the more the big players will want a
>>>> piece of the action - always the path to doom. the differences apart, i see
>>>> a parallel between bitcoin miners and hackers. once celebrated as freedom
>>>> fighters, the hackers got carved up in no time - the more reckless ones by
>>>> organised crime, and the tamer ones by big corporations and governments -
>>>> the original cause remains a minority pursuit, indulged by the likes of
>>>> Anonymous.
>>>>
>>>> 3] if it feels and sounds and looks like a gold rush, it is a gold rush
>>>> - or at least, has become one - however we dress it up. this is not to diss
>>>> gold rushes, they too were liberatory, but in the way capitalism always
>>>> has been - partially and ephemerally. but finally, a gold rush is a gold
>>>> rush, and no more.
>>>>
>>>> And this is just political economy. The ecological dimension is in
>>>> addition to this. Globally, we are on the brink of ecological and climatic
>>>> collapse - the stakes cannot be higher, so in the big picture view, the
>>>> bitcoin rush is a minor sideshow, or a distraction. Yet another
>>>> speechifying false prophet of the end times, like renewable energy. The
>>>> nuclear visions of the green saints fall in the same category. There may be
>>>> compelling reasons for such pseudo-solutions to be generated constantly
>>>> [geopolitics for eg.] - but this does not change in anyway the essential
>>>> truth about them being inappropriate, inadequate or, worst of all,
>>>> counterproductive. This brings us back to question - why then are these
>>>> solutions implemented, and for whom?
>>>>
>>>> I will sign off with some quotes
>>>>
>>>> this is by from Samuel Alexander's 'Sufficiency Economy'
>>>>
>>>> http://samuelalexander.info/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Sufficiency-Economy-Samuel-Alexander.pdf
>>>>
>>>> If a society does not have some vision of where it wants to be or
>>>> what it wants to become, it cannot know whether it is heading in the
>>>> right direction – it cannot even know whether it is lost. This is the
>>>> confused position of consumer capitalism today, which has a fetish
>>>> for economic growth but no answer to the question of what that
>>>> growth is supposed to be for. It is simply assumed that growth is
>>>> good for its own sake, but of course economic activity is merely a
>>>> means, not an end. It can only ever be justified by some goal beyond
>>>> itself, but that is precisely what consumer capitalism lacks – a
>>>> purpose, a reason for existence. It is a means without an end, like a
>>>> tool without a task. What makes this state of affairs all the more
>>>> challenging is that the era of growth economics appears to be
>>>> coming to a close, due to various financial, ecological, and energy
>>>> constraints, and this is leaving growth-based economies without the
>>>> very capacity for growth which defined them historically. Before
>>>> long this will render consumer capitalism an obsolete system with
>>>> neither a means nor an end, a situation that is in fact materialising
>>>> before our very eyes.
>>>>
>>>> this is from Ted Trainer's “But Can’t Technical Advance Solve the
>>>> Problems?”
>>>>
>>>> https://damnthematrix.wordpress.com/2016/07/16/but-cant-technical-advance-solve-the-problems/
>>>>
>>>>  Because technology has achieved many wonders it is assumed that it
>>>> will come up with the required solutions, somehow.  This is as rational as
>>>> someone saying, “I have a very serious lung disease, but I still smoke five
>>>> packs of cigarettes a day, because technical advance could come up with a
>>>> cure for my disease.”  This argument is perfectly true… and perfectly
>>>> idiotic.  If you are on a path that is clearly leading to disaster the
>>>> sensible thing is to get off it.  If technology does come up with solutions
>>>> then it might make sense to get back on that path again.
>>>>
>>>> The tech-fix optimist *should be challenged to show in detail what are
>>>> the grounds for us accepting that solutions will be found, to each and
>>>> every one of the big problems we face*.  What precisely might solve
>>>> the biodiversity loss problem, the water shortage, the scarcity of
>>>> phosphorus, the collapse of fish stocks, etc., and how likely are these
>>>> possible beak-throughs?   Does it not make better sense to change from the
>>>> lifestyles and systems that are causing these problems, at least until we
>>>> can see that we can solve the resulting problems?
>>>>
>>>> It should be stressed that the argument here is not to deny or
>>>> undervalue the many astounding advances being made all the time in fields
>>>> like medicine, astronomy, genetics, sub-atomic physics and IT, or to imply
>>>> that these will not continue. The point is that technical advance is very
>>>> unlikely to come up with *ways that solve the resource and
>>>> environmental problems being generated by affluent lifestyles*.  The
>>>> argument is that when the magnitude of the task (above) and the evidence on
>>>> the significance of technical advance for resource and ecological problems
>>>> is considered (below), tech-fix faith is seen to be extremely unwarranted …
>>>> and the solutions have to be sought in terms of shifting to a Simpler Way
>>>> of some kind.
>>>> A comprehensive collection of articles and books by Trainer and
>>>> Alexander is available here
>>>> https://simplicityinstitute.org/publications
>>>>
>>>> Finally, here is Bookchin:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> “To speak of ‘limits to growth’ under a capitalistic market economy is
>>>> as meaningless as to speak of limits of warfare under a warrior society.
>>>> The moral pieties, that are voiced today by many well-meaning
>>>> environmentalists, are as naive as the moral pieties of multinationals are
>>>> manipulative. Capitalism can no more be ‘persuaded’ to limit growth than a
>>>> human being can be ‘persuaded’ to stop breathing. Attempts to ‘green’
>>>> capitalism, to make it ‘ecological’, are doomed by the very nature of the
>>>> system as a system of endless growth.”_
>>>>
>>>> — *Murray Bookchin*
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 8:11 PM Frank Kashner <fkashner at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Alex and Sajai, thank you for your responses. I had not seen this
>>>>> article and I encourage people to read it.
>>>>>
>>>>> This Is What Happens When Bitcoin Miners Take Over Your Town'
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/03/09/bitcoin-mining-energy-prices-smalltown-feature-217230/
>>>>>
>>>>> At first, it sounds like a horror story.  So much (wasted?) energy.
>>>>> For what? Much of the discussion on this forum has focused on bitcoin
>>>>> mining and its ecological and social impact. Yes, it is like a gold rush,
>>>>> the gold being otherwise wasted, inexpensive electricity turned into
>>>>> bitcoin rather than, literally, water over the dam.
>>>>>
>>>>> Notice that the amazing capacity of those hydroelectric dams was
>>>>> created for a now gone aluminium industry and a soon to be gone demand from
>>>>> California that is increasingly fulfilled by more local solar and wind
>>>>> generation. The author fails to account for the enormous economic benefit
>>>>> gained by the public power company through the sale of power to the miners,
>>>>> and its beneficial effects. (New road? Schools? Hospitals? - I don’t know)
>>>>>
>>>>> Patrick, you point out that Bitcoin is a good vehicle for capital to
>>>>> flee a country.  Prior to Bitcoin did capital ever have a problem fleeing
>>>>> any country? Something new is that Bitcoin is a good vehicle for capital to
>>>>> enter a country via millions of small dollar remittances, from first to
>>>>> third world countries, previously ripped off by Western Union and other
>>>>> vultures.
>>>>>
>>>>> Matt, thank you for the defense of Woody.  I am not going to use this
>>>>> forum to describe what I find amazing about Bitcoin and how it is
>>>>> developing.  That information is readily available on the web, or, for some
>>>>> of you, from your children or others of that generation. It is a mistake to
>>>>> lump it together with the corporate and governmental arms of our
>>>>> surveillance states, or with AI or other “4th generation” labor and freedom
>>>>> undermining technologies.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Jun 12, 2021 at 8:45 AM Tom Abeles via WSM-Discuss <
>>>>> wsm-discuss at lists.openspaceforum.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi Sajai
>>>>>> regarding solar/wind and biomass renewables, there is a question
>>>>>> regarding quantity that can be produced and the cost. More importantly,
>>>>>> there is a question of time to get needed energy installed. There are those
>>>>>> in the renewables/sustainable energy area who are pro nuclear but biting
>>>>>> their tongue to not be pilloried by the renewable folk. These are the new
>>>>>> small, modular, reactors that provide power and industrial level heat.
>>>>>> There are operational units and research is ongoing in China, Russia, US
>>>>>> and other countries.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 9:58 PM Sajai Jose <sajaijose.poi at gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Matt,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I happen to agree with you. There was no need to drag poor old Woody
>>>>>>> Guthrie into this. (just to clarify, i was suggesting that this was
>>>>>>> essentially a conversation between the settlers - with Guthrie giving voice
>>>>>>> to the commoners who felt cheated out of their Promised Land. but that's a
>>>>>>> whole other debate which we needn't get into here). Saying this because I
>>>>>>> don't want the main point to get side-tracked.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I suppose I was too shocked by the Politico article [here's it again]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/03/09/bitcoin-mining-energy-prices-smalltown-feature-217230/
>>>>>>> I was always under the impression that bitcoin was a relatively
>>>>>>> harmless pastime for those who want to play rebel in the cool shade of the
>>>>>>> capitalist umbrella. It is clearly much more than that, with far greater
>>>>>>> potential for positive change as Frank pointed out, but also far greater
>>>>>>> destructive potential [both socially and ecologically] than i myself had
>>>>>>> realised.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> however, im convinced that it would be a mistake to make this about
>>>>>>> weighing bitcoin's good against its bad [so to speak] - that's a debate
>>>>>>> that can and will go on endlessly, because both sides will have lot of
>>>>>>> 'evidence' to support their case. But the debate is framed thus for a
>>>>>>> reason - it distracts from the real problem. which is that such
>>>>>>> pseudo-solutions that operate within the system's framework give it fresh
>>>>>>> legitimacy, sow confusion in the majority, and ultimately make them
>>>>>>> acquiesce with its larger destructive work even when it has become visibly
>>>>>>> suicidal.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 'Renewable energy' falls into this same category - perhaps the
>>>>>>> biggest pseudo-solution at work today. In fact, this particular debate is
>>>>>>> almost over. Most people are by now convinced that 'climate change is the
>>>>>>> problem'  and 'renewable energy is the answer'. Who in 'polite society'
>>>>>>> (and polite society runs the world) will criticise solar energy today? Or
>>>>>>> wind power? It would be almost like arguing against the sun and the wind
>>>>>>> themselves, something absurd. Never mind the facts - whether its the
>>>>>>> question of net energy or the sea bed being ripped up. Or the added
>>>>>>> emissions, of all things!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But we must continue to interrupt polite society, rudely if
>>>>>>> necessary. In fact, each of these pseudo-solutions is an opportunity for us
>>>>>>> to expose them, and also point to the systemic nature of the problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Over and out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sajai
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 10:03 PM Matt Meyer <
>>>>>>> resistanceinbrooklyn.ows at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear comrades,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm having a little trouble taking this otherwise fascinating and
>>>>>>>> cogent exchange seriously when the otherwise insightful Brother Sajai
>>>>>>>> appears to get Woody Guthrie's magical words a bit wrong! Of course Woody
>>>>>>>> understood that "this land" didn't literally belong to you and me...that's
>>>>>>>> the whole point of the song! It is a revolutionary aspirational vision
>>>>>>>> based on what should be and perhaps could be with a massive shift in
>>>>>>>> consciousness and subsequent political action! If we all truly believed
>>>>>>>> that the land was yours and mine - not the thieves who stole and occupy it
>>>>>>>> - we might make the kind of revolution (there's that word again!) which
>>>>>>>> Woody was trying to fight for and build.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Could there be parallels here to cryptocurrency? In reality, it is
>>>>>>>> still tied too closely to the power brokers who control all currency,
>>>>>>>> wealth, and related economic power. Aspirationaly, however, might it have
>>>>>>>> the potential to envision the shifts which Frank writes about?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> MattM
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 11:30 PM Sajai Jose via WSM-Discuss <
>>>>>>>> wsm-discuss at lists.openspaceforum.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear Frank,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You seem to understand bitcoin, and see it as a positive
>>>>>>>>> development overall.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>   This Is What Happens When Bitcoin Miners Take Over Your Town'
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/03/09/bitcoin-mining-energy-prices-smalltown-feature-217230/
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> i also read this article, which Alex posted - truly a horrifying
>>>>>>>>> picture, and somewhat incomprehensible to someone like me who is far
>>>>>>>>> removed from the site of action. going by this, it seems to be just another
>>>>>>>>> gold rush, one that makes fortunes for some, and leaves behind a lot of
>>>>>>>>> wreckage, socially and materially [that is also to say, ecologically]. its
>>>>>>>>> net effect seems to me destructive on all these counts - despite the gas it
>>>>>>>>> keeps from flaring [surely an unintended grace].
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> People who understand technology tend to be technophiles (as with
>>>>>>>>> everything else, there are exceptions), and seem to always concentrate on
>>>>>>>>> its positive side. That is to say, technology shapes their attitude, as
>>>>>>>>> invariably happens when you engage with something much bigger than you.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On the other hand, those who don't understand it are likely to be
>>>>>>>>> technophobic at some level, focusing on the negative aspect [i'll admit to
>>>>>>>>> being one of these. that is to say, my attitude to technology is shaped by
>>>>>>>>> my ignorance of it, just as yours is shaped by your knowledge of it]. So
>>>>>>>>> this may be a dialogue between two people with no common language, held
>>>>>>>>> across a chasm that possibly cannot be bridged.
>>>>>>>>> With that caveat, I feel that the part of the problem is how you
>>>>>>>>> approach it - do you look at the part or the whole? I feel Woody Guthrie
>>>>>>>>> was wrong, a dictator is just a king who controls the electricity, so to
>>>>>>>>> speak. Which king ever enjoyed the kind of power, or exert the kind of
>>>>>>>>> control, that the average dictator holds? And where else does this power
>>>>>>>>> and control come from but 'electricity', that is to say, from the grid,
>>>>>>>>> from technology? [incidentally, this was not the only thing he was wrong
>>>>>>>>> about - that land does not belong to "you and me" - but he made good music,
>>>>>>>>> so all is forgiven]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> if you look at the part, you only see the many incremental gains
>>>>>>>>> and the many scattered and [likely] transient liberations [for some] that
>>>>>>>>> technology has brought about - if you look at the whole, you see a global
>>>>>>>>> techno-industrial civilisation, the technosphere that has become a parasite
>>>>>>>>> on the biosphere, [quite apart from its direct human and social costs] has
>>>>>>>>> altered or destabilised every planetary system and has endangered life
>>>>>>>>> itself. .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the benefits - political or social or economic - brought by
>>>>>>>>> technology are incremental and transient, but the costs are cumulative and
>>>>>>>>> permanent. climate change alone, for example, can undo all the so-called
>>>>>>>>> gains of the modern era, while simultaneously victimising further most of
>>>>>>>>> the indigenous peoples of the world and the exploited masses who have
>>>>>>>>> already had to bear the cost of building the modern techno-industrial
>>>>>>>>> system, apart from the destruction of other species. their fate resembles
>>>>>>>>> those prisoners in the gulag who were forced to dig their own graves.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> how do two centuries of convenience and prosperity for some weigh
>>>>>>>>> against the destruction of indigenous and subject peoples across the world,
>>>>>>>>> and destabilisation of the very systems that support life? to defend the
>>>>>>>>> incremental gains and transient liberations of technology [by this i mean
>>>>>>>>> modern industrial technology - technology in its broadest sense is a
>>>>>>>>> different matter altogether] is to apologise for this life-destroying
>>>>>>>>> system, and ultimately to commit collective suicide.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> to sum up, at the very least, we need to rethink technology: its
>>>>>>>>> scale, its complexity, its political economy, its benefits vs its cost, its
>>>>>>>>> purpose, whether its present form can be altered, and so on. [Its a
>>>>>>>>> different matter whether we can, though. After all, the genie's been long
>>>>>>>>> out of the bottle - and seems to like it there. It will probably have to
>>>>>>>>> run its course.]
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Looking forward to your response
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sajai
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 3:44 AM Frank Kashner via WSM-Discuss <
>>>>>>>>> wsm-discuss at lists.openspaceforum.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jai, I replied to post earlier but made the mistake of changing
>>>>>>>>>> the topic.  I hope this gets to the list.  Thanks,  Frank
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>  Bitcoin creation, aka mining, is an energy intensive process
>>>>>>>>>> that secures a secure, worldwide, decentralized network.  When mining
>>>>>>>>>> energy comes from coal, it is as polluting as any other coal electrical
>>>>>>>>>> generation.  When the energy comes from otherwise unused hydroelectric,
>>>>>>>>>> solar, or gas that would otherwise be flared, it is energy saving.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For China, the question of shutting down coal reliant bitcoin
>>>>>>>>>> mines overlaps their use of coal in general, including building new coal
>>>>>>>>>> burning plants.  China also overbuilt many hydroelectric plants,
>>>>>>>>>> anticipating population growth in the future. Bitcoin miners at those
>>>>>>>>>> plants were supplanted by the plant operators themselves, who support
>>>>>>>>>> entire communities by mining otherwise wasted capacity. Nigeria is leading
>>>>>>>>>> Africa in peer to peer adoption.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Every regime, especially the US, as the owner of the world’s
>>>>>>>>>> reserve currency, must decide how they will respond to bitcoin, a
>>>>>>>>>> decentralized and deflationary currency over which they have little
>>>>>>>>>> control. Many countries are considering issuing their own national “coin”,
>>>>>>>>>> that is, a digital dollar, or yuan, or Euro which they would control.  The
>>>>>>>>>> only thing these coins have in common with Bitcoin is that they are
>>>>>>>>>> digital.  Venezuela already issued one which was a flop.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Whether bitcoin challenges capitalism is like asking, did
>>>>>>>>>> electricity end feudalism? The advancement of democracy has a relationship
>>>>>>>>>> to technological progress, but seldom in a straight line.  At a time of
>>>>>>>>>> great ideological debate, Woody Guthrie famously said, “Don't
>>>>>>>>>> like dictators not much, myself, But I think the whole country
>>>>>>>>>> ought to be run. By electricity!”
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Everyone on this list should become familiar with Bitcoin.  It
>>>>>>>>>> will be considered as important an invention as the Internet itself.  While
>>>>>>>>>> it does not change the distribution of wealth at the top, it offers people
>>>>>>>>>> at the middle and bottom ways to send money home quickly and cheaply, a
>>>>>>>>>> “banking system” that does not require banks, and, for those who can save
>>>>>>>>>> anything, a way to escape hyper-inflation. When the Venezuelan military
>>>>>>>>>> confiscates mining equipment, they then re-install and operate it
>>>>>>>>>> themselves.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> At minimum, Bitcoin is replacing gold as a store of value,
>>>>>>>>>> despite its wild price fluctuations. Coupled with the Lightning network, it
>>>>>>>>>> will offer a world wide disintermediated payment system. It is a
>>>>>>>>>> cryptographic, mathematical, and programmatic advancement. Julian Assange
>>>>>>>>>> argues that cryptography is a most important tool for anyone who wants ways
>>>>>>>>>> to be independent of surveillance states, which now include almost every
>>>>>>>>>> government in the world.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> It is being used by countries under US sanctions to continue
>>>>>>>>>> economic activity, and by individuals around the world to exchange value
>>>>>>>>>> with others within and outside of their own country. Iran suspended bitcoin
>>>>>>>>>> mining only for a few peak energy months and will resume after that.  It is
>>>>>>>>>> entirely different from India’s demonetization policy which was a vehicle
>>>>>>>>>> to steal billions from the people of India.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> While many people associated with Bitcoin can be characterized as
>>>>>>>>>> Libertarian Conservatives, there is room and need for Libertarian
>>>>>>>>>> Socialists to find ideological footing.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 2:15 PM Jai Sen <jai.sen at cacim.net>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thursday, June 10, 2021
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Hello, to all those who have replied to / otherwise engaged with
>>>>>>>>>>> my post back on Monday, June 7
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>             (Just to make this clear, though I’m replying here
>>>>>>>>>>> immediately to a post and exchange that took place only on WSMDiscuss, till
>>>>>>>>>>> three posts ago the exchange on this issue was vigorously taking place both
>>>>>>>>>>> on WSMDiscuss and on RED – and with some very useful points made by RED
>>>>>>>>>>> subscribers cc to WSMDiscuss; and I'm therefore ccing RED back in here.)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>             In some ways, and in particular, and speaking only
>>>>>>>>>>> for myself of course, thanks to all those who have posted links towards
>>>>>>>>>>> better understanding just what Bitcoins are and what the Bitcoin economy is
>>>>>>>>>>> about, and also raising associated issues such as energy related.  (And
>>>>>>>>>>> even if I openly admit that I haven’t been able to look at all of them –
>>>>>>>>>>> this overload being one of the problems of the ease of giving links ! : -)
>>>>>>>>>>>  )
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>             This said, and while I appreciate that it is of
>>>>>>>>>>> course important to know what Bitcoins are and what the Bitcoin economy is
>>>>>>>>>>> about – including its wider implications -, my sense is that we’ve not yet
>>>>>>>>>>> addressed the (other) fundamental issue that I tried to raise in my
>>>>>>>>>>> original post :
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> “… the part that interests me is the social (and political)
>>>>>>>>>>> basis on which El Salvador’s President is selling his move : *That
>>>>>>>>>>> it will “include” the “70% of El Salvador’s population does not have a bank
>>>>>>>>>>> account and works in the informal economy”*.  [And
>>>>>>>>>>> specifically, the president Nayib Bukele arguing that what he’s doing is
>>>>>>>>>>> ‘all about and for the majority that is poor / the migrant workers /
>>>>>>>>>>> etc’.]  Any comments, from those who understand this field ?  Because the
>>>>>>>>>>> implications, and repercussions, of this step are huge, for economies – and
>>>>>>>>>>> rulers - across the world.”
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>            As I see it, this is an argument in favour of bitcoin
>>>>>>>>>>> I’ve not heard before, but is of course a populist rationale that I’m sure
>>>>>>>>>>> will now be picked up widely, by leaders of government and public opinion
>>>>>>>>>>> elsewhere, from the right and the left, and citing this case.  Just as,
>>>>>>>>>>> say, so-called ‘demonetisation’ was enacted and sold in India, a few years
>>>>>>>>>>> ago, in the name of breaking the so-called ‘black market’ economy, and
>>>>>>>>>>> through this, ‘saving the poor’.  (And was therefore actually a massive
>>>>>>>>>>> assault on the poor and on the so-called ‘informal sector’, and especially
>>>>>>>>>>> on women in this sector.)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And so where we who are critical of this, and who are alive to
>>>>>>>>>>> the dangers of populist policies, therefore need now to engage with this
>>>>>>>>>>> aspect – and try and take positions on what ‘we’ want to do about this
>>>>>>>>>>> within the contexts we live and work in.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>             Any comments ?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>             Jai
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 8, 2021, at 1:51 PM, Brian <brian at radicalroad.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Indeed.  And consider as well the qualities of the Bukele
>>>>>>>>>>> regime in El Salvador, and whose interests such a policy
>>>>>>>>>>> actually intends to serve...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://thebaffler.com/latest/new-problems-old-ideas-gressier
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://thebaffler.com/latest/new-problems-old-ideas-gressier?utm_source=Baffler+Readers&utm_campaign=4c4ca1c2d2-weekly_05262021&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_3541d01f8a-4c4ca1c2d2-46810876>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> New Problems, Old Ideas Nayib Bukele dismantles El Salvador’s
>>>>>>>>>>> fledgling democracy
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Roman Gressier <https://thebaffler.com/authors/roman-gressier>, *The
>>>>>>>>>>> Baffler*, May 20, 2021
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Brian
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 8 Jun 2021, at 10:33 am, francine mestrum via WSM-Discuss <
>>>>>>>>>>> wsm-discuss at lists.openspaceforum.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> please do not ignore the gigantic energy consumption it requires.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Francine
>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/06/2021 12:00, Rosamma Thomas via WSM-Discuss wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/08/bitcoin-btc-price-slides-as-us-seizes-most-of-colonial-ransom.html?__source=sharebar|twitter&par=sharebar
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Jun 8, 2021 at 3:27 PM helena <h.paul at gn.apc.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Just quick thoughts:
>>>>>>>>>>>> I would call cryptocurrencies ultimate capitalism. Currencies
>>>>>>>>>>>> in markets change value all the time. The changes with crypto are so much
>>>>>>>>>>>> bigger.
>>>>>>>>>>>> 'Blockchain makes decentralisation possible….' Yes for those
>>>>>>>>>>>> who are in, not for those who are outside that blockchain.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I think Iran found its electricity supply seriously depleted
>>>>>>>>>>>> because crypto-operators had moved in – this is a real problem.
>>>>>>>>>>>> El Salvador is a fearsome regime, isn’t it, with people fleeing
>>>>>>>>>>>> from it constantly?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Helena
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> From: <radical_ecological_democracy at googlegroups.com> on
>>>>>>>>>>>> behalf of Ashish Kothari <ashishkothari at riseup.net>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Date: Tuesday, 8 June 2021 at 10:46
>>>>>>>>>>>> To: James Pochury <jamespoch at gmail.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Cc: Post WSMDiscuss <wsm-discuss at lists.openspaceforum.net>,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Post RED <radical_ecological_democracy at googlegroups.com>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [REDlistserve] El Salvador looks to become first
>>>>>>>>>>>> country in the world to adopt bitcoin as legal tender
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> But what about this? (and there are many more such reports):
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/feb/27/bitcoin-mining-electricity-use-environmental-impact
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Democracy that comes at a huge ecological cost is not, well,
>>>>>>>>>>>> democracy! But, like Jai, then I don't understand much about all this, so
>>>>>>>>>>>> perhaps someoen can enlighten.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Also, are all cryptocurrencies likely to cause such ecological
>>>>>>>>>>>> impacts, or are some different ...and if so, how?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I also did not understand this, James: "blockchain is a network
>>>>>>>>>>>> of millions of computers .... makes decentralisation possible" ... and then
>>>>>>>>>>>> "authoritarian regimes don't want to let in existing cryptos ... would
>>>>>>>>>>>> ratehr create their own Blockchain & crypto currency" ... now is
>>>>>>>>>>>> blockchain/cryptos are inherently decentralised, would not authoritarian
>>>>>>>>>>>> regimes risk their own power by setting up their own?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Finally, do any of these fundamentally challenge capitalism
>>>>>>>>>>>> (and in the above qs, statism), or are they 'reforms' within the existing
>>>>>>>>>>>> structures?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> thanks to anyone, who can respond to these qs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> ashish
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 08/06/21 3:03 pm, James Pochury wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> One bitcoin had almost touched 50,000 USD. Right now it is
>>>>>>>>>>>> hovering around 36,000. You can own a fraction of bitcoin, including by
>>>>>>>>>>>> giving a fraction to the 70% of the informal economy and over a period of
>>>>>>>>>>>> time, the value increases benefitting them.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> There are atleast 5000 cryptocurrencies and counting. Etherium
>>>>>>>>>>>> is at no. 2 in terms of value.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The decentralised nature of cryptocurrency, with crowdfunding
>>>>>>>>>>>> approach in many cases, makes it a viable and political project with huge
>>>>>>>>>>>> potential for the masses.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Blockchain technology is the engine that drives cryptocurrency.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Blockchain is a network of millions of computers across the world wired
>>>>>>>>>>>> together through a software platform. Blockchain makes decentralisation
>>>>>>>>>>>> possible. A reason why authoritarian regimes don't want to let in existing
>>>>>>>>>>>> cryptos into their countries. They would rather create their own Blockchain
>>>>>>>>>>>> and crypto currency.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Blockchain is also poised to be used for many other sectors,
>>>>>>>>>>>> including financial, health, educational institutions, communications,
>>>>>>>>>>>> transportation, trade, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> James
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 8 Jun 2021, 02:01 Jai Sen, <jai.sen at cacim.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Monday, June 7, 2021
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *El Salvador in movement…, **Ideas in movement…, **History in
>>>>>>>>>>>>> movement…, Economies in movement…*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> [I know nothing about Bitcoin, and my last attempt – this last
>>>>>>>>>>>>> weekend - to try to understand (by reading an article on it) resulted in my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bailing out.  But that’s not the point : A day later, I see this article,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and the part that interests me is the social (and political) basis on which
>>>>>>>>>>>>> E; Salvador’s President is selling his move : *That it will
>>>>>>>>>>>>> “include” the “70% of El Salvador’s population does not have a bank account
>>>>>>>>>>>>> and works in the informal economy”*.  Any comments, from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> those who understand this field ?  Because it seems to me that the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> implications, and repercussions, of this step are huge, for economies – and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> rulers - across the world :
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> “Next week I will send to Congress a bill that will make
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bitcoin a legal tender in El Salvador,” Bukele said in the message
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Saturday. “In the short term this will generate jobs and help provide
>>>>>>>>>>>>> financial inclusion to thousands outside the formal economy and in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> medium and long term we hope that this small decision can help us push
>>>>>>>>>>>>> humanity at least a tiny bit into the right direction.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The U.S. dollar is El Salvador’s official currency. About one
>>>>>>>>>>>>> quarter of El Salvador’s citizens live in the United States and last year,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> despite the pandemic, they sent home more than $6 billion in remittances.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen McKeon, a finance professor at the University of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oregon who studies cryptocurrencies, said Bitcoin is legal to own in most
>>>>>>>>>>>>> countries but has never been designated as legal tender, which would mean
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it could be used to to settle financial obligations, including taxes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But, he added, “It is unclear whether anyone desires to pay
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their taxes in Bitcoin.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Additional details of the plan were not released. But Bukele
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in subsequent messages on Twitter noted that Bitcoin could be “the fastest
>>>>>>>>>>>>> growing way to transfer six billion dollars a year in remittances.” He said
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that a big chunk of those money transfers were currently lost to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> intermediaries and with Bitcoin more than a million low-income families
>>>>>>>>>>>>> could benefit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> He also said 70% of El Salvador’s population does not have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bank account and works in the informal economy. Bitcoin could improve
>>>>>>>>>>>>> financial inclusion, he said.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *El Salvador looks to become first country in the world to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> adopt bitcoin as legal tender*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Associated Press
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/international-business/article-el-salvador-president-plans-to-make-bitcoin-legal-tender/?symbol=print-msg
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> El Salvador President Nayib Bukele, pictured after a news
>>>>>>>>>>>>> conference in San Salvador on June 6, 2021, wants to make Bitcoin legal
>>>>>>>>>>>>> tender in his country.  (JOSE CABEZAS/Reuters)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> El Salvador President Nayib Bukele announced in a recorded
>>>>>>>>>>>>> message played at a Bitcoin conference in Miami that next week he will send
>>>>>>>>>>>>> proposed legislation to the country’s congress that would make the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> cryptocurrency legal tender in the Central American nation.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The 39-year-old president, who has maintained approval ratings
>>>>>>>>>>>>> above 90% and made Twitter his preferred way of communicating,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> characterized it as an idea that could help El Salvador move forward.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> “Next week I will send to Congress a bill that will make
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bitcoin a legal tender in El Salvador,” Bukele said in the message
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Saturday. “In the short term this will generate jobs and help provide
>>>>>>>>>>>>> financial inclusion to thousands outside the formal economy and in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> medium and long term we hope that this small decision can help us push
>>>>>>>>>>>>> humanity at least a tiny bit into the right direction.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> The U.S. dollar is El Salvador’s official currency. About one
>>>>>>>>>>>>> quarter of El Salvador’s citizens live in the United States and last year,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> despite the pandemic, they sent home more than $6 billion in remittances.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Stephen McKeon, a finance professor at the University of
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oregon who studies cryptocurrencies, said Bitcoin is legal to own in most
>>>>>>>>>>>>> countries but has never been designated as legal tender, which would mean
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it could be used to to settle financial obligations, including taxes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> But, he added, “It is unclear whether anyone desires to pay
>>>>>>>>>>>>> their taxes in Bitcoin.”
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bukele’s New Ideas party holds a supermajority in the new
>>>>>>>>>>>>> congress seated May 1, giving any legislative proposal from the president a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> strong likelihood of passage.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Additional details of the plan were not released. But Bukele
>>>>>>>>>>>>> in subsequent messages on Twitter noted that Bitcoin could be “the fastest
>>>>>>>>>>>>> growing way to transfer six billion dollars a year in remittances.” He said
>>>>>>>>>>>>> that a big chunk of those money transfers were currently lost to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> intermediaries and with Bitcoin more than a million low-income families
>>>>>>>>>>>>> could benefit.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> He also said 70% of El Salvador’s population does not have a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bank account and works in the informal economy. Bitcoin could improve
>>>>>>>>>>>>> financial inclusion, he said.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Riding his high popularity and his party’s dominance
>>>>>>>>>>>>> performance in Feb. 28 elections, Bukele has concentrated power. His
>>>>>>>>>>>>> party’s supermajority in congress ousted the justices of the Constitutional
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chamber of the Supreme Court May 1. They then replaced the attorney general.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> They had been critical of some of Bukele’s more drastic
>>>>>>>>>>>>> measures during the pandemic, including a mandatory stay-at-home order and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> containment centres where those caught violating the policy were detained.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> While enjoying a positive relationship with former U.S.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> President Donald Trump, Bukele has had a much more tense relationship with
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the administration of President Joe Biden.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Last month, the White House Special Envoy for the Northern
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Triangle Ricardo Zuniga said during a visit to El Salvador that the U.S.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> government would like to see El Salvador reverse the moves against the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> court and the attorney general. Bukele said that would not happen.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bukele’s concentration of power, attacks on critics and open
>>>>>>>>>>>>> disdain for checks on his power have raised concerns about El Salvador’s
>>>>>>>>>>>>> path. However, Bukele has a wide base of support in part due to the utter
>>>>>>>>>>>>> failure of the country’s traditional parties who ruled during the past 30
>>>>>>>>>>>>> years to improve people’s lives and to his ability to provide short-term
>>>>>>>>>>>>> benefits.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bukele has been praised for aggressively obtaining COVID-19
>>>>>>>>>>>>> vaccines and running an efficient vaccination program far more successful
>>>>>>>>>>>>> than El Salvador’s neighbours.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To reply to the author of this message, select "reply"; to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> reply to the whole list, select "reply to all".
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> radical_ecological_democracy+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit
>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/875DFE51-600A-455D-8C83-7D2155B54394%40cacim.net
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/875DFE51-600A-455D-8C83-7D2155B54394%40cacim.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> To reply to the author of this message, select "reply"; to
>>>>>>>>>>>> reply to the whole list, select "reply to all".
>>>>>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to
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>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/CA%2Bgr59ojWD6KQ1qhrd_jvo%3DgYMWo3TSdjcNyxHyW9TQpg%3DWb-Q%40mail.gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/CA%2Bgr59ojWD6KQ1qhrd_jvo%3DgYMWo3TSdjcNyxHyW9TQpg%3DWb-Q%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> New, for COVID relief in India! Vikalp Sutra
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://sutra.vikalpsangam.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> NOW FREE DOWNLOAD! Pluriverse: A Post-Development Dictionary
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/pluriverse>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Ashish Kothari
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Kalpavriksh
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Apt 5 Shree Datta Krupa
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 908 Deccan Gymkhana
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Pune 411004, India
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tel: 91-20-25654239; 91-20-25675450
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Kalpavriksh <https://kalpavriksh.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Vikalp Sangam <http://vikalpsangam.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Radical Ecological Democracy
>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.radicalecologicaldemocracy.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Global Tapestry of Alternatives
>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.globaltapestryofalternatives.org/>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://ashishkothari51.blogspot.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Twitter <https://twitter.com/chikikothari> LinkedIn
>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.linkedin.com/in/ashishkothari1961> Instagram
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.instagram.com/ashishkotharivikalp/> Facebook
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ashish.kothari.1297>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> To reply to the author of this message, select "reply"; to
>>>>>>>>>>>> reply to the whole list, select "reply to all".
>>>>>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Radical Ecological Democracy" group.
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to
>>>>>>>>>>>> radical_ecological_democracy+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/65d72abb-99fc-7117-fbee-1b50f14a447a%40riseup.net
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/65d72abb-99fc-7117-fbee-1b50f14a447a%40riseup.net?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> To reply to the author of this message, select "reply"; to
>>>>>>>>>>>> reply to the whole list, select "reply to all".
>>>>>>>>>>>> ---
>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "Radical Ecological Democracy" group.
>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to
>>>>>>>>>>>> radical_ecological_democracy+unsubscribe at googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web, visit
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/DCE4FC4F.164488%25h.paul%40gn.apc.org
>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/DCE4FC4F.164488%25h.paul%40gn.apc.org?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> ** Inspired by the World Social Forum, WSMDiscuss – the successor to a list named ‘WSFDiscuss’ started in 2005 - is an open, unmoderated, and self-organising forum for the exchange of information and views on the experience, practice, and theory of social and political movement at any level (local, national, regional, and global), including the World Social Forum.  Join in ! **
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Visit:  https://murphyslog.ca
>>>>>>>>>>> Twitter:  @BrianKMurphy2
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>> successor to a list named ‘WSFDiscuss’ started in 2005 - is an open,
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>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> ____________________________
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jai Sen
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Independent researcher, editor; Senior Fellow at the School of
>>>>>>>>>>> International Development and Globalisation Studies at the University of
>>>>>>>>>>> Ottawa
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> jai.sen at cacim.net &  <jsen at uottawa.ca>jsen at uottawa.ca
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Now based in Ottawa, Canada, on unsurrendered Anishinaabe
>>>>>>>>>>> territory (+1-613-282 2900) and in New Delhi, India (+91-98189
>>>>>>>>>>> 11325)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *Check out something new** – including for copies of the first
>>>>>>>>>>> two books below, at a discount, and much more : **The Movements
>>>>>>>>>>> of Movements <https://movementsofmovements.net/>*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jai Sen, ed, 2017 – *The Movements of Movements, Part 1 : What
>>>>>>>>>>> Makes Us Move ?*.  New Delhi : OpenWord and Oakland, CA : PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Press.  Ebook and hard copy available at PM Press
>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.pmpress.org/>; hard copy only also at The Movements
>>>>>>>>>>> of Movements <https://movementsofmovements.net/>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jai Sen, ed, 2018a – *The Movements of Movements, Part 2 :
>>>>>>>>>>> Rethinking Our Dance*.  Ebook and hard copy available at PM
>>>>>>>>>>> Press <http://www.pmpress.org/>; hard copy only also at The
>>>>>>>>>>> Movements of Movements <https://movementsofmovements.net/>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Jai Sen, ed, 2018b – *The Movements of Movements, Part 1 : What
>>>>>>>>>>> Makes Us Move ?*  (Indian edition). New Delhi : AuthorsUpfront,
>>>>>>>>>>> in collaboration with OpenWord and PM Press.  Hard copy
>>>>>>>>>>> available at MOM1AmazonIN
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.amazon.in/dp/9387280101/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1522884070&sr=8-2&keywords=movements+of+movements+jai+sen>
>>>>>>>>>>> , MOM1Flipkart
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.flipkart.com/the-movements-of-movements/p/itmf3zg7h79ecpgj?pid=9789387280106&lid=LSTBOK9789387280106NBA1CH&marketplace=FLIPKART&srno=s_1_1&otracker=search&fm=SEARCH&iid=ff35b702-e6a8-4423-b014-16c84f6f0092.9789387280106.SEARCH&ppt=Search%20Page>,
>>>>>>>>>>> and MOM1AUpFront <http://www.authorsupfront.com/movements.htm>
>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>> ** Inspired by the World Social Forum, WSMDiscuss – the successor
>>>>>>>>>> to a list named ‘WSFDiscuss’ started in 2005 - is an open, unmoderated, and
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>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/call-it-by-its-true-name-declare-global-climate/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/call-it-by-its-true-name-declare-global-climate/>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> ** Inspired by the World Social Forum, WSMDiscuss – the successor
>>>>>>>>> to a list named ‘WSFDiscuss’ started in 2005 - is an open, unmoderated, and
>>>>>>>>> self-organising forum for the exchange of information and views on the
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>>>>>>>>> Old / previous WSFDiscuss List Archives :
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <http://www.ecologise.in/>
>>>>>>> [image: https://twitter.com/EcologiseIndia]
>>>>>>> <https://twitter.com/EcologiseIndia> [image:
>>>>>>> https://www.facebook.com/SAPACCearth]
>>>>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ecologise.in>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/call-it-by-its-true-name-declare-global-climate/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/call-it-by-its-true-name-declare-global-climate/>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> To reply to the author of this message, select "reply"; to reply to
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>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/radical_ecological_democracy/CAMHFA4Ym_tEMsdFh8dMtcb9pg7SQhdsp_Ae1_9Zn0qLro74Q2g%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>> .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> ________________________________________
>>>>>> ** Inspired by the World Social Forum, WSMDiscuss – the successor to
>>>>>> a list named ‘WSFDiscuss’ started in 2005 - is an open, unmoderated, and
>>>>>> self-organising forum for the exchange of information and views on the
>>>>>> experience, practice, and theory of social and political movement at any
>>>>>> level (local, national, regional, and global), including the World Social
>>>>>> Forum.  Join in ! **
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> World Social Movement Discuss mailing list
>>>>>> POST to LIST : Send email to wsm-discuss at lists.openspaceforum.net
>>>>>> SUBSCRIBE : Send empty email to
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>>>>>> UNSUBSCRIBE : Send empty email to
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>>>>>> Old / previous WSFDiscuss List Archives :
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <http://www.ecologise.in/>
>>>> [image: https://twitter.com/EcologiseIndia]
>>>> <https://twitter.com/EcologiseIndia> [image:
>>>> https://www.facebook.com/SAPACCearth]
>>>> <https://www.facebook.com/ecologise.in>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/call-it-by-its-true-name-declare-global-climate/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/call-it-by-its-true-name-declare-global-climate/>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>>
>> <http://www.ecologise.in/>
>> [image: https://twitter.com/EcologiseIndia]
>> <https://twitter.com/EcologiseIndia> [image:
>> https://www.facebook.com/SAPACCearth]
>> <https://www.facebook.com/ecologise.in>
>>
>>
>> <https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/call-it-by-its-true-name-declare-global-climate/>
>>
>>
>> <https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/call-it-by-its-true-name-declare-global-climate/>
>>
>>
>>

-- 



<http://www.ecologise.in/>
[image: https://twitter.com/EcologiseIndia]
<https://twitter.com/EcologiseIndia> [image:
https://www.facebook.com/SAPACCearth]
<https://www.facebook.com/ecologise.in>

<https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/call-it-by-its-true-name-declare-global-climate/>

<https://www.ipetitions.com/petition/call-it-by-its-true-name-declare-global-climate/>
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